Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

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Roger
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Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Roger » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:14 am

As the day approaches where i want to race my new toy the question of her yardstick handicap becomes more significant.

I think we need a first guess based on the experiences of racing the new designs against the nethercots. This becomes more difficult caused by the different number schemes used around the world. For me this is the first time i'm confronted with more then looking up a number i the german yardstick number list so i hope there are guys in our community who know more about the topic than me. (the German yardstick number for the nethercot is 98).

And i think (and hope) there is some interest in this topic, so that we can define some numbers here.

Roger

(still) IC GER 68
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jimc
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by jimc » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:43 am

Roger, how does your handicap scheme work? Is it divide the race time by the yardstick and multiply by 100, or is it a different formula?

If its a divisor then according to the numbers Chris got out from the worlds then 95, maybe 96 would be a good starting point (works out at 95.4). Info in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=736. In that thread Peter MacLaren, using a different technique gets a rather lower number, equivalent I think to 93 for you if I have tha calculation right.

Roger
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Roger » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:02 am

jimc wrote:Roger, how does your handicap scheme work? Is it divide the race time by the yardstick and multiply by 100, or is it a different formula?

If its a divisor then according to the numbers Chris got out from the worlds then 95, maybe 96 would be a good starting point (works out at 95.4). Info in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=736. In that thread Peter MacLaren, using a different technique gets a rather lower number, equivalent I think to 93 for you if I have tha calculation right.
Yes thats the way the formula works.

i just found the older thread (would have been better to read before opening a new one...)
and i think the starting point of 95 -96 could be o.k. based on the wolrd results.

But there might be some new inputs based on the american or aussie nationals or other regattas whith mixed fleets.


Roger
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Chris Maas
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Chris Maas » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:10 pm

I have raced a number of times against a Musto Skiff who's helmsman is at about the same skill level as me.
The races have been quite close in anything from a drifter to 20knots on windward leeward courses. I usually win but not by much.

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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by jimc » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:06 pm

The Musto SKiff number in the UK is 875 (very fractionally slower then an AC which is 873) and would translate into 95 (well 94.75) in the DE numbers. So they're all about the same territory...

Roger
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Roger » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:59 am

jimc wrote:The Musto SKiff number in the UK is 875 (very fractionally slower then an AC which is 873) and would translate into 95 (well 94.75) in the DE numbers. So they're all about the same territory...
the Musto has 94 in Germany - so 95 seems to be reasonable regarding this - but we have to consider the fact that that crhis tends to be to modest regarding his racing skills.

are any other comparisons available ? Maybe Christian or Hayden can give some infos fron the OZ nationals ?
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Christian AUS
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Christian AUS » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:06 am

Roger wrote:
jimc wrote:The Musto SKiff number in the UK is 875 (very fractionally slower then an AC which is 873) and would translate into 95 (well 94.75) in the DE numbers. So they're all about the same territory...
the Musto has 94 in Germany - so 95 seems to be reasonable regarding this - but we have to consider the fact that that crhis tends to be to modest regarding his racing skills.

are any other comparisons available ? Maybe Christian or Hayden can give some infos fron the OZ nationals ?
As an average based on the Worlds we came up with 91.5 YS for the then DC, Nethercotts race off 93.5 in Australia (Flying Dutchman is 93, 505 is 97.5..). Hayden is working on getting an accurate result through our national Yachting Association, but in the meantime about 92 seems in the ballpark.

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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by alanppowell » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:10 pm

As far as I'm aware the New ICs and the Nethercotts race together in the UK. While helms are getting used to the new boats this seems to work quite well. Clearly when they get it together the new boats do appear to be significantly quicker but we still race 'hare and tortoise'! If there are enough boats in each fleet separate results can be extracted.
This doesn't help with general handicap fleets however.

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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by jimc » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:39 pm

alanppowell wrote:As far as I'm aware the New ICs and the Nethercotts race together in the UK. While helms are getting used to the new boats this seems to work quite well.
It seems generally accepted that the spread of finish times in most one design fleets approaches 20%. The difference between IC and Nethercott is estimated in this thread at around 3 - 4%, so in practice the two ought to be pretty mixed up on the water, as indeed they have been to a good extent in the UK. When changes come in they tend to look bigger than they really are because newer boats tend to be owned by the best sailors, and older ones by folks who still have a way to go up the learning curve. I've been keeping an unofficial note of the One Design Travellers separated from the entire AC fleet here http://www.devboats.co.uk/ICresults/one ... rs2008.htm .

Colin Newman
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Colin Newman » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:56 pm

Roger,

I am just catching up with the IC Forum! :idea: It is good to see you are about to race your new rules IC in Germany. In the UK there are no more new rules ICs on the water than there were at the time of the Worlds (4) but at least one is being built. Are you the only one in Germany so far? :?:

You and I have in the past very similar racing records (9th and 10th in the Worlds, etc). This year, when I have raced against the new rules boats in my One Design, orange, Nethercot IC, on windy days I have beaten them as they were having trouble in what seems a more tippy boat. Oxford, our last open of 2008, was in winds about 10 knots, I beat Phil Robin in the first race as he had a terrible start, but he nearly caught me by the finish. He won the remaining three races and when I was sailing well (in Race 3) he was, I estimate, about 4 to 5 % faster round the course. A few years ago when Phil sailed Nethercot ICs he would almost always beat me on windy days but on days like we had at Oxford I could beat him in at least some of the races. No times were taken, but I guess the new rules boats are about 5% faster round a course than the One Designs if sailed by those with similar abilities. This should be reflected in the handicap.

There are few results to go on as I have done far fewer open meetings this year than in the past. In April, after our return from Australia, my wife developed a rare, auto-imune illness (Temporal Arteritis) that has to be controled from now on with several different drugs, which have some unfortunate side-effects. Often she has not felt well enough to travel with me or she has been having treatment clashing with an open meeting so I felt the need to stay at home. Our 40th wedding aniversary also clashed with an open so that too had to take priority! We shall have to see how things develop, but I have done nothing about getting a new rules boat, though I did take delivery of a new foiling Moth in May, ordered before my wife became unwell. We just might make it to Sweden for the Europa Cup but a lot will depend on how Barbara is getting on next year. It is however a long way to go for just three days of racing, or even fewer if any days are lost to too much wind as has happened in the UK, all too often this year. There are no longer any direct ferries from the UK to Sweden, but Tor Line (Commercial) has a freight service which will take motorcaravans and boats, provided they have room, and provided passengers can tolerate some uncertainty over departure times and even dates. I need to see the Notice of Race as there may be lay days in the programme which can be used if any other days are lost during the series. Are you intending to go to Sweden? :?: Who else is going from Germany?

Best Regeards, Colin

Roger
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Roger » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:18 pm

Colin Newman wrote:Roger,

I am just catching up with the IC Forum! :idea: It is good to see you are about to race your new rules IC in Germany. In the UK there are no more new rules ICs on the water than there were at the time of the Worlds (4) but at least one is being built. Are you the only one in Germany so far? :?:

You and I have in the past very similar racing records (9th and 10th in the Worlds, etc). This year, when I have raced against the new rules boats in my One Design, orange, Nethercot IC, on windy days I have beaten them as they were having trouble in what seems a more tippy boat. Oxford, our last open of 2008, was in winds about 10 knots, I beat Phil Robin in the first race as he had a terrible start, but he nearly caught me by the finish. He won the remaining three races and when I was sailing well (in Race 3) he was, I estimate, about 4 to 5 % faster round the course. A few years ago when Phil sailed Nethercot ICs he would almost always beat me on windy days but on days like we had at Oxford I could beat him in at least some of the races. No times were taken, but I guess the new rules boats are about 5% faster round a course than the One Designs if sailed by those with similar abilities. This should be reflected in the handicap.

There are few results to go on as I have done far fewer open meetings this year than in the past. In April, after our return from Australia, my wife developed a rare, auto-imune illness (Temporal Arteritis) that has to be controled from now on with several different drugs, which have some unfortunate side-effects. Often she has not felt well enough to travel with me or she has been having treatment clashing with an open meeting so I felt the need to stay at home. Our 40th wedding aniversary also clashed with an open so that too had to take priority! We shall have to see how things develop, but I have done nothing about getting a new rules boat, though I did take delivery of a new foiling Moth in May, ordered before my wife became unwell. We just might make it to Sweden for the Europa Cup but a lot will depend on how Barbara is getting on next year. It is however a long way to go for just three days of racing, or even fewer if any days are lost to too much wind as has happened in the UK, all too often this year. There are no longer any direct ferries from the UK to Sweden, but Tor Line (Commercial) has a freight service which will take motorcaravans and boats, provided they have room, and provided passengers can tolerate some uncertainty over departure times and even dates. I need to see the Notice of Race as there may be lay days in the programme which can be used if any other days are lost during the series. Are you intending to go to Sweden? :?: Who else is going from Germany?

Best Regeards, Colin
Colin

thanks for the infos - i hope your wife is getting better and i fully unterstand your priorization towards family.
the 4%-5% means that a german yardstick of 93 to 94 is in the range. So the 94 seems to me a good choice from what we discussed here even if would prefer the 95.

Roger
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jkells
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by jkells » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:57 am

In the interest of providing more data, I have the tomes from the High Performance Dignhy Open in Rye NY earlier this month. We shared a start with Fireballs a I14 & Contenders, but the results were split as the IC's qualified for class racing. I do not know where to send the information.

Best

JK

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Christian AUS
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Christian AUS » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:34 am

jkells wrote:In the interest of providing more data, I have the tomes from the High Performance Dignhy Open in Rye NY earlier this month. We shared a start with Fireballs a I14 & Contenders, but the results were split as the IC's qualified for class racing. I do not know where to send the information.

Best

JK
I'll take the info and do some sums. Do you have a national body in the states that handles off the beach yardsticks? They might want copies.

Cheers

H Virtue
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by H Virtue » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:53 am

JK.
Can I get a copy also.
Thanks
H.

Roger
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Re: Yardstick Numbers for new Design IC

Post by Roger » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:17 am

Here: http://www.ksgh.de/tikiwiki/tiki-downlo ... ?fileId=59 are the overall times of the IC Cup race at Steinhuder Meer end of august.
The ICs have the yardstick number 98 in Germany.

It has been a relative constant between 9-15 kts and flat water (and sunny :) ) kind of ideal conditions for me. I would have finished among the best 3 on my OD so the comparison is quite reasonable for me.

I was able to outperform the OD finishing second by about 7% in race 1, about 3% in race 2 and about 7% in race 3. This means with a 95 i would still have won all three races in calculated time and with a 93 i still would have won the series with two bulltes and a second.

I think this is not applicable for all kind of conditions but gives another indicator on the value for the yardstick numbers of the new rule ics

Roger
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