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 Post subject: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 754
Location: United Kingdom
Got a bit of a conundrum. My jib on 257 is disintegrating, and although I need at some stage to sort out a whole new rig, I thought in the meantime I'd just get a replacement the same so I can go sailing, but with one difference. The fly in the ointment being that the guy I've used for one sails for the last 20 years is semi retired and hasn't the space to make new sails.

So, anyway, I ordered the sail, and left the old jib as a pattern. I'm probably guilty of not giving as much information as I ought, because previous sailmaker and I knew each other pretty well, and I reckon he had a good idea how I think.

So, anyway, the email dialogue went like this:

Quote:
> > I have a Canoe jib which probably needs replacing as the lower Dacron
> > panels are getting split after split, and I've used up my roll of repair
> > tape... If the old sail is repairable cost effectively so much the
> > better, but it would need quite a number of panels replaced, and maybe
> > an alteration to the panel layout as I'd like a higher clew point for
> > experimenting with a self tacking jib.
> >
> > So if I need a new sail basically I want a sail much the same as the
> > present one, flow and planform, except for the clew as noted, so that in
> > continues to match the main.

> Please see details below for the canoe jib, points noted are
>
> clew position to red dot
> dacron unless upgraded
> windows
> same area
> same foot round

Go for dacron I think. Same roach and flow as close as you can get it
please, want to minimise the amount of retuning I have to do.

Would it be possible to get a second clew position where the original was,
or will that be too much of a problem with the panel layout? I would like
to be able to use the standard settings if I'm not happy with the self
tacking setup. I'm pretty rabid about precise jib trim, and am not sure if
I'll get quite what I want out of the self tacking setup.


N0w, what I've got is on this flickr album, which shows both sails, both strung up on the grass, and also flying on the boat.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/56735928@N05/Ra7W7X

Hopefully some of the shots are visible here, although flickr doesn't always co-operate.

Image

Image

Image

The huge initial surprise was short battens. I mean, short battens, in 2015? But also the roach profile is different, with it being much more even than the fuller top that I had on the old sail, and which was intended to make the top twist differentially. I'm not at all convinced that what's happening at the clew matches what I asked either. You can see the clew position I wanted marked with a tiny orange X on the old sail just under the light line that sheets the new one. As far as I can tell the twist behaviour is subtly different on the new sail.

But the big question is was my description of what I wanted so inadequate I should have sympathy for the sailmaker? It doesn't seem like that to me, but then I'm biased. The general fullness of the sail is very much as the old one, its the planform, the clew and the battens I'm unhappy with. There's nothing wrong with it *as a sail*, I should make that clear.


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:28 pm
Posts: 225
Location: United Kingdom
Hi Jim
Sails are the one thing that I find difficult. Everything else is easy to control, either make it your self or do a drawing / CAD model and instruct some one else and there is real control over what you get. Sails are another beast. It's really diffcult to instruct a sail maker exactly what you want mainly because I do not understand the design process, and they assume that as well and do go off on a tangent based on there own previous experience, and they think that's what you want, and sometimes it is. I have debated with myself about who to go to for my next set of sails, and one option is to use a local person who mainly makes boat covers but does make a few sails. The basis with that would it would be basically my design (so no garantees on how it would work) but he would put it together. Not sure how that helps your situation, can you get it to fit the boat? Does it measure? Have you discussed it with Dave?

_________________
Alistair


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 754
Location: United Kingdom
No, haven't discussed it with sailmaker yet, I've only just been able to make a detailed comparison today. Thing is I don't want to go saying 'this isn't what I wanted' if I failed to make it reasonably clear what it was I did want. I don't doubt he cut what he thought would be the best IC jib for the 3 corners... I think at least some of you will be aware that I am not especially bothered by having things that are different from everyone else's, but I am reminded of a protracted dialogue I had with a mast maker last year where it became obvious that the guy was finding it impossible to believe that anyone would want a spar as removed from the conventional as I was asking him to specify. Fortunately that time I realised there wasn't going to be a meeting of minds before epoxy got near carbon. I hope I haven't failed to communicate again, so I'm just trying to get a rain check from you guys on my sailmaker communication skills!


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:41 am
Posts: 24
Clearly you need to specify, and get in return, a sail that (a) you can fit to your foretriangle, and (b) is very close to your specified area. I gather this new sail passes those tests: if not, it should go back.

But the difference between a good jib and a bad one is not its 2-D shape. In the case of your new jib, the lead seems from the photos to be exactly as you marked it (though did you want the other clew below the working one, or above it?). If you ask for two clews it seems to me that you must expect a different structure and shape to the clew area. In this case the cringle is further from the fairlead and it's therefore likely you're going to get a 'subtly different' leach profile, as you describe, when on the boat.

It's notable that yours is a DS jib without evident roach - certainly unlike mine and (for example) Phil Robin's. So I would imagine that DS were responding to your design brief, without copying the original sail. I wonder whether the relatively small difference in roach in your two jibs is likely to be critical - at a guess, maybe less so than 2 or 3mm more or less of jib sheet, which is beyond my sheeting accuracy, though maybe not yours.

More generally, I agree with Alistair that the issue is fundamentally what you expect from a sailmaker. Do you expect them to bring their ideas and experience to your sail, or do you want them to reproduce precisely to your specifications? A couturier or a seamstress? If I go to a well-known sailmaker and pay his prices, implicitly I'm asking for them to be more than a seamstress.


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 252
Jim
I actually don't think that what you have been sent is too far off ! The higher clew might have been to take in a self tacker into consideration....as would have been the clew position. I.e. the self tacker would presumably have a higher jib fairlead.
I think battens are a good idea.....might prolong the length of the jib leech. If you like the draft and shape of the sail, and are going to stay with manual jibsheets, why not put another clew cringle in to give you choice?
Gaz


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 96
Having measured a dozen or more sails this year, problems with sails made by a number of leading sailmakers appear to be a theme this year. Delivery dates, sail area, profile and shapes being the main cause for concern. However I do not know what was ordered!
Go with someone you can trust and when ordering go over the specification with the sailmaker very carefully. Its surprising that some do not read or have knowledge of the class rules and 0.6 square metres short in mainsail area is not unknown. Delivery in the summer silly season may not help their attention to detail.
On the other hand a few sailmakers I have spoken to this year could not have been more helpful, giving excellent free advice.


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:28 pm
Posts: 70
Hi Jim, Most recently,when I have had any sails made,I have sent a full size paper pattern so that the profile cannot be wrong.
Whenever there is any interpretation to be made by the sailmaker,that is where the problems begin,and to be fair,you cannot expect a sailmaker to read your mind.
One favourite of mine simply refused to put in any less than 165mm of mainsail luff round,despite me pleading for a flat sail! Now, when I ask him to perform his magic, I will state exactly how much round I want.
But there is another side to all this, as Robin Wood very neatly summed up....."Heres you.You know stuff-all about anything and you are trying to tell a World champion, (Jim Hunt in this case), how to make a sail."
I guess it is ideal if your sailmaker is local enough for you to be able to see his drawn-out profile and to be able to discuss batten length and stiffness,the % draft of the sail,and any points where the outcome may diverge from your expectations.


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two jibs, or should I send this back?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 754
Location: United Kingdom
OK, looks like the consensus is that I should have made things clearer.

Got to raise the enthusiasm to make the jib boom now, otherwise it will sit in the back of the van until the good sail finally disintegrates...


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