The International Canoe

The forum for the International Canoe
It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:41 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
To answer some questions: I think tech rules go into effect 45 days after passage. I have not talked to ICF yet about getting them printed up etc.

Remember we have the IC rule, the AC rule and the One Design rule. AC's are referenced nto the One Design rule, not the new rule. This was all discussed extensively and there was no proposal to change that. If this wants revisiting it will be 2010.

There are several ways that every one can play. If a race organizer wants to run everyone together that would work. Until a critical mass of none one design boats is reached I strongly suggest that some PN or some such is applied so that the new boats don't automatically run off with the fancy hardware. Not so important in situations where people are not going for historically important hardware. Once the new rule boats start reach a critical mass...... and I don't know what that number is then it would make sense to dump the PN. The critical mass might be more new rules boats than one designs. If a race organizer had lots of each then it could make sense to run separate trophies. I think the point is to provide what ever incentive it takes to keep boats from becoming garage queens.

From the international perspective, any country is free to organize their events anyway they like.

ben

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
Ben Fuller wrote:
new boats don't automatically run off with the fancy hardware

New boats have *always* run off with the fancy hardware Ben: I don't see many Piranhas at the top of the UK fleet. Its always been the case in just about every class you care to mention. If you haven't got very recent sails, rig, everything fair and well prepared, smooth finish on foils and hull, blocks and strings new and friction free then you won't win. And as any Laser sailor will tell you the easiest way to get all that is to have a new boat. People like me aren't going to buy a new boat and march to the top of the fleet on a magic carpet: no amount of boatspeed will match with throwing the boat in on every beat. Talent always beats boat speed. Of course Talent *AND* Boatspeed is hard to beat, but isn't that the idea?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
New boats don't automatically run off with the hardware in a 'one design fleet" as anyone who showed at the Rhode Island worlds know. We now have a transitional fleet: the new boats automatically have a xx% speed advantage. As we know there are plenty of 3-6 year old One Designs out there which have full modern gear. Its these boats that still need to be in the game for a while until the owners decide to make a switch. Again, this is a national problem and I leave it to each country to sort out. The goal however would be to have as many entrants for the old plate this summer as one did last.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
Location: United Kingdom
Don't worry Steve It was a bit if a wind up! :twisted: I wouldn't put a pole in a DC. I'am quite content to watch you guys do the IC(DC) thing It kind of reminds me of Moth sailing back in the 70's & memories of friends strugling with overweight boats (thus not finishing my DC). As a Club sailor my decision to convert to AC was as I've mentioned to remain or at least try to be competative in a mixed handicap fleet of 15to30 Assymetric plastic OD's.with posibly the odd open thrown in. It will be interesting this season at our club to compare Andys lightweight DC with a classic heavy AC. Anyway good luck to you all with the DC developments, Regards Barry. :mrgreen:

ps I was going say my wind up was a bit like 'freindly fire ' but didnt want to offend anyone so please ignore that as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

_________________
BMW


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:02 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Australia
So when can we expect to see the official copy of the rules with the incorporated approved changes? This is imporant for scheduling our AGM.

Cheers

_________________
http://icflatpack.blogspot.com/
IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


Last edited by Christian AUS on Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
I don't know. This stuff is supposed to go in effect 45 days after the meeting. ICF has to send me the current version; I push things around a little, add the new section II, move the old one to section IV then make the reference changes to section III.

ben

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:46 pm
Posts: 236
Location: United Kingdom
Is it now certain that at the next Europa Cup in Sweden (and at all international events from now on), the top prize, the Europa Cup will go to the first placed IC, probably one of the new 50Kg boats, whilst the One Designs will be racing in the same fleet with the new ICs?

For the last few weeks I have had a wife who has been none to well. Once she is well again and the medics have ruled out any long term implications that at first they were worried about, I need to decide what way to go with my IC, stick with the One Design or move on to a new IC. Most of my racing is on handicap at my local club. I am competative once the wind is up so last Sunday I was easily first boat home in the 24 boat fleet and was probably first on PY too. However, once the wind is less than 10 knots I cannot beat the better RS300s on handicap and in the very light conditions I even have trouble beating the best ones on the water. Are those with new ICs finding it a more rewarding boat than the One Design to race in light winds in a mixed fleet? What I want is a light wind flyer suitable for a 65Kg sailor. Does the new IC fit this requirement or do the new boats 'stick' in light winds as much as the One Designs which are frustratingly slow on handicap in light conditions? Views please from those with experience of the new light weight boats. These are the sort of questions I am asking before I decide if it is worth changing boats, what will give me most fun and satisfaction in my old age, now that in Laser terms I am a 'Great Grand Master'!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:05 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Germany
Colin Newman wrote:
I need to decide what way to go with my IC, stick with the One Design or move on to a new IC.


after sailing several new ICs in MCRae there is no more need for decission for me. They feel so much faster and more responsive than the OD that i have no other choice than to go for one.

i would appreciate to race against you in Sweden with a new IC - but of course we are all happy to have our "Great Grand Master" in the competition, regardless which kind of canoe you sail.

_________________
GER 68


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
Colin Newman wrote:
or do the new boats 'stick' in light winds as much as the One Designs which are frustratingly slow on handicap in light conditions?

What I'm coming to believe (and feel free to shoot me down, those who know more than me) is that in light and variable airs after a certain point the performance differentials between faster and slower boats telescope rapidly.

My theory is that its all to do with gusts. I played about with a one off 14ft singlehander before I got a Canoe, and both boats were slippery enough downwind that they could sail out of the front of gusts. Once you've sailed out of the front of your gust you slow down of course, so you head downwind at about gust speed... If we can get the DCs efficient enough so that we can sail hotter angles and catch gusts then there will be another jump - Steve are A cats fast enough to do that? But in the meantime the DCs will be faster in the gusts, faster to reach puffs and across wind, but from about RS300 speed boats upwards there isn't a lot of difference running square until you get to higher wind speeds. I think its going to be very interesting how the Morrison goes in the light as I'd rate that on paper as being potentially the fastest current DC in light airs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:02 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Australia
Colin Newman wrote:
Is it now certain that at the next Europa Cup in Sweden (and at all international events from now on), the top prize, the Europa Cup will go to the first placed IC, probably one of the new 50Kg boats, whilst the One Designs will be racing in the same fleet with the new ICs?

For the last few weeks I have had a wife who has been none to well. Once she is well again and the medics have ruled out any long term implications that at first they were worried about, I need to decide what way to go with my IC, stick with the One Design or move on to a new IC. Most of my racing is on handicap at my local club. I am competative once the wind is up so last Sunday I was easily first boat home in the 24 boat fleet and was probably first on PY too. However, once the wind is less than 10 knots I cannot beat the better RS300s on handicap and in the very light conditions I even have trouble beating the best ones on the water. Are those with new ICs finding it a more rewarding boat than the One Design to race in light winds in a mixed fleet? What I want is a light wind flyer suitable for a 65Kg sailor. Does the new IC fit this requirement or do the new boats 'stick' in light winds as much as the One Designs which are frustratingly slow on handicap in light conditions? Views please from those with experience of the new light weight boats. These are the sort of questions I am asking before I decide if it is worth changing boats, what will give me most fun and satisfaction in my old age, now that in Laser terms I am a 'Great Grand Master'!


Hi Colin, I've been yardstick (off of 91.5) racing the club fleet (Netherott, Paper Tiger Catamarans, Fireballs) since the Words (and some foiler Moths -Ned and Greg) and I have been beating everything over the line in sub 6 knots (though have lost out to AUS9 -OD, yardstick 93.5 - in these conditions, but spanked the sub foiling Moths). The light IC's are quick, but the Nethercott holds its own against me until mine planes at about 7 knots -then it's goodbye. I've even handed it to the foiling Moths in windier (15kt's) conditions, but this was due to a long beat up a narrow river ad the Moth just couldn't tack and hold a high line well enough.
I hope all goes well on the home front, and I look forward to seing you in a new light IC.

_________________
http://icflatpack.blogspot.com/
IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:12 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United Kingdom
Colin - best thing to do is have a sail in a new IC and see for yourself what they are like. I will be going to the Weston Open and subject to it not blowing old snot, you are very welcome to have a sail in Scarlett.

_________________
Phil
K 41 Conquest


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Massachusetts
New rules IC's (formerly DC's!) will always be faster, but the performance differences are smaller in lighter winds. There is a big jump in performance in transitional planning conditions where the new boats get up & go earlier. The engine is the same; it is now on a lower drag platform.

Colin, if you build a new boat, you will not be disappointed!

Best

John K.
USA-244


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:54 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Australia
Jim and Colin,
If you read the McCrae test sail reports from various people on http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... =0&start=0
I think you will understand that the new rules boats slip along very easilly, particularly the fine bow, flat spring versions like String Theory and the Log. Chris obviously got the whole package a lot better than I did.

I have always found the log to be very quick downwind in the light against all sorts of boats, even cats skiffs etc if it is very light. It might be the single sail but at least it shows the hull shape has no high drag regime at low speed.

The fine bows mean there is no transition, you have no feeling of the boat jumping on to the plane, it just gets faster and faster, like a cat or narrow moth before foils. My boat so far does not seem overly critical of seat position. Except in the light and in waves, it does not mind if the bow is high or low, it seems to go the same speed. I have not nose dived it although Oliver did easter last year.

I think you will be surprised just how well the new boats go in mixed fleets.

_________________
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:46 pm
Posts: 236
Location: United Kingdom
Thanks for all the helpful replies. No one 'official', like Ben, has picked up yet on the issue of the fleets next year in Sweden for the Europa Cup. Will the Europa Cup be reserved for the first IC overall, One Design or a new rules boat? From Roger's friendly comment (thanks mate) it sounds like there will soon be some new rules boats building in Germany. Today was to have been a Wednesday evening race at my club, but with a forecast of winds '1 mph gusting to 2 mph' perhaps I won't bother driving 20 miles for a drift! Mow the lawn time as I dream about the future!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
Since this is not organized by the ICFSC, I think it would be up to the organizing group to figure this out with a goal of maximizing participation. I believe that there have been separate 'cups' for AC and ICs. I would think you could wait and see what the participation looks like. If you can have only one perhaps it goes to the fleet with the most entries like one of the best Bermuda Race trophies did when there were two different rules fleets.

ben

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group