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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:35 pm 
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Ben, Phil and Gareth,

Thanks for your replies and postings, even barbed complements from Gareth! Thanks mate! I too agree this is a positive step forward and congratulate the ICF Sailing Committee. I whole heartedly endorse the effort that is being made to retain interest in racing the old rules, ‘One Design’ boats (out of self interest if nothing else!) and, yes ‘One Design’ is a better name for them than ‘Classic’.

A pedantic point in relation to Ben’s explanation about the Worlds is that surely the possibility of there being ICF medals for the ‘One Design’ boats does not need to depend on there also being new rules ICs (former DCs) from six nations etc? Let us envisage that in 2011 we get exactly the same turn out as 2008 in Melbourne. As I understand it, the combined fleet of former DCs (from three nations) now measuring as ICs would in 2011 be racing with the ‘One Design’ ICs (from six nations and three continents) and all would compete for the one set of main medals, all racing together for the ‘IC World Champion’ title. However, the fact that within the overall IC fleet the ‘One Designs’ on their own, even without the addition of the 50kg boats had met the ICF requirement for the award of medals would surely mean they could have a separate, second set of ICF medals for which only the ‘One Designs’ would be eligible? Of course, as the old rules and new rules boats would still be racing as one fleet it would be possible for the winner of the ‘One Design’ Gold Medal also to come, say, third overall and thus also get the Bronze Medal in the overall set of medals. This scenario really does exactly what everyone wants, keep alive interest in racing the One Design alongside the exciting lighter new boats.

If I am right in my analysis above, then one technical matter needs to be agreed in advance of any competition. In calculating the finishing order for the One Design medals do the results get worked out as if the new rules boats were not in the race so that the highest placed One Design gets one point, the next two points etc (as I would recommend) or would overall position in the race be the score to count so that the two boats above might get, say, three points and the next best One Design eight points? How the scoring is done makes a difference to the outcome within the One Design fleet when scores from several races in a series are added up, discards allowed etc. We had an example of this in last year’s Europa Cup which was combined with the UK Nationals. When the results for just the UK sailors were taken out from the overall set, thus discarding those from competitors from the rest of Europe, the situation arose where competitor ‘Jim’ beat ‘Bob’ in the Europa cup, but Bob beat Jim in the UK Nationals. It is of course easier to award the ‘One Design’ medals to the highest placed One Design in the overall set of results (as we do for first junior, first Master etc) but that is probably actually less fair as it permits finishing order of boats not eligible for the One Design medals to influence the ‘One Design’ final results. At least with Juniors etc they are racing in the same race with everyone else.

And responding to Phil, I know you are really thinking about the issue of retaining the ‘One Design’ rule, but I think these changes are far from being ‘more theoretical than real’. They mean do I have to beat you in my present ‘One Design’ boat 33.5 Kg heavier than your new racing machine if I hope to beat you in this years UK Nationals to become IC National Champion! ? We will I assume be racing as one fleet. Trophies such as the historic ‘Sailing Challenge Cup’ are open to all ICs; within days the ICF will almost certainly have approved a new rule that states all current DCs from now on measure as ICs. Surely nobody locally (e.g. the BCU Sailing Committee) can then turn round and say that a boat that measures as an IC cannot compete in an event that has historically been open to all ICs? Instead, they can, and I hope they will, find a new trophy or prize for the first ‘One Design’ in the Sailing Challenge Cup IC race and suitable prizes for first, second and third ‘One Design’ ICs in the Nationals. I have to admit that in this territory I am still a bit unclear how the new rules will apply as Ben Fuller implies that things will be worked out nationally at a local level. It could get very contentious if the organisers of an event historically open to all ICs (like the IC National Champion title, Sailing Challenge Cup race etc) decided to restrict eligibility at least for the prizes only to ‘One Design’ ICs. Yet this is what it sounds as if the ICF Sailing Committee envisages could happen? Have I got this wrong?

To my way of thinking events like the Europa Cup, World Championships, New York Cup, National Championships, Travellers Series prize, Masters Trophy at the Nationals quite simply ‘exist’ to be won by the first placed boat measuring as an IC and from now on that includes all boats currently measuring as DCs as they will now measure as ICs. Any other interpretation and individuals simply will not know where they are and how to plan their racing campaigns for the future, which boats to buy and so in. By all means add new/extra prizes for ‘One Designs’ racing with the lighter new rules boats. Most current owners of ‘One Designs’ may make it the realistic limit of their ambitions to win these prizes. At least for this year I shall do so myself, regarding any new rules ICs (former DCs) I beat in the Nationals as a bonus. However, if there is going to be any ambiguity with some historic events restricted only to ‘One Design’ ICs then nobody will know where they stand. Let me take a real example, I would like to enter the 2009 Europa Cup in a boat that gives me the best possible chance of winning this event again (if pigs can fly!). Do I therefore commission, say, Andy Paterson to make me an all singing all dancing 50 Kg IC built to the new rules which if I ordered it soon could be ready in time for the 2009 Europa Cup event and the UK 2009 season in which to practice (but not if I wait till next year when the Notice of Race comes out)? However, under the ICF decision is there even a remote chance of the Swedish organisers of the event coming out with a Notice of Race stating that eligibility for the Europa Cup and winner of the IC European Championships will be restricted to only ‘One Design’ ICs with a different race and/or trophy being provided for new rules ICs which may be few in number? (Ben can you clarify this question as it is more than theoretical as far as I am concerned). I would be well miffed if having invested in a new 50 Kg IC and sold my present ‘One Design’, shortly before the event I was told I could not race my new IC as an IC competing for the Europa Cup. Appeals could start flying to the ICF (RYA or ISAF in any other class) or in extremis if somebody really got upset lawyers might be brought in! At a national level similar scenarios could occur over entry to the UK Nationals or IC events in the UK. All our canoe sailing is ‘just a game’, but it is a game we take seriously and need to know exactly what rules apply, and importantly, when they will apply so we can plan accordingly.

Surely the essence of the ICF decision is that from now on all boats measuring as ICs can enter all competitions open to ICs in the past and in the future with no attempt to keep out the 50 Kg boats. At the same time everything possible will be done to keep alive interest in racing in the ‘One Design’ boats, but not at the expense of banning the new lighter boats competing with them for the overall prizes. Unfortunately, there remains some ambiguity in the reporting of the ICF decision that this is not quite what is envisaged, at least at a local level in each country. There is more than a hint that national committees may decide to race new rules ICs as a separate class to the One Designs rather than in the same races but with extra prizes for the One Designs. The ambiguity needs to be removed or the conditions for qualifying for entry to forthcoming events (Europa Cup especially) clarified for several years ahead so individuals can plan accordingly and make informed decisions on new boats they might buy. In the UK context, this should also mean the RYA will in due course come up with a new Portsmouth Yardstick for the IC, while keeping the present Portsmouth Number (905) for the ‘IC One Design’.

And Gareth, I am sorry not to have kept it up! That took me 1,637 words, but it is worth it if it gets the situation properly understood by everyone and encourages event organisers to start thinking how best to keep alive interest in racing the ‘One Designs’, even if few new ones will ever be built other than intended as ACs in the UK. That is until the ACs decide they do not want to miss out on the light weight fun and go that way too!

Colin Newman


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Forwhat my opinion is worth I think Colin is exactly right.

It would be good if National Committees could post their intentions when it comes to race starts and results calculation for events within their jurisdiction as soon as possible. Apart from anything else we need to be able to tell race committees what to do. At the UK Grafham Open last weekend, for example, DCs were calculated separately from ICs, so I scored second in the DC fleet, whereas I should have been placed 6th in the combined fleet with the winning DC 4th.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Speaking from Australias point of view, as soon as we have the final wording on the rule change (i.e. the new appoved written rules) we will hold our AGM to define the way ahead.

I think the Yardstick concept might have a place as a trophy, but since the IC's will be continually developing and the OD will be relatively static (maybe some small rig advances) it will be hard to guage a fair yardsick until post major national/international regattas.
In Australia, I will be pushing for the IC to be racing for the regular silverware and seperate trophy to recognize the effrts of OD's. Afer all, our trophies are made for IC's to win and IC's are now boats that meet a box rule.

Internationally, we need to look at the New York Canoe Club International Challenge Cup as at this very early stage Australia looks to have only IC's travelling to Germany and no OD's.

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IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Wondering if it's just me missing the point.......I was under the impression that, by this w/e, there will be a new measurement rule for the 'International canoe' ie the 'old' development canoe. Therefore, these boats sail as ICs for all the trophies.
There will also be a 'one design' canoe that will be able to race in the same races as the above, gain and lose places with the above, enable large fleets to race together....and have the final results extrapolated from the overall table if prizes want to be given.
No yardstick measurements/ calculations.
No separate results throughout the week.
All boats look like canoes to the general public.....dead easy for all to understand. If boat A beats boat B by one place, they get one less point score.
























And then there are obviously the canoes that everyone really aspires to....the ACs!!
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:08 pm 
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My interpretation of the ICF sailing committee decision is that for International events the trophies have to be awarded to ICs (new rules and one design together), but there could be additional prizes for One Designs.
For national regattas there is no such compulsion, it will be for each national IC association to decide how they organise their regattas and award prizes. That said, in countries where new rules boats are sailing, it would be a little strange if the main trophies are awarded to one designs if they have been beaten by new rules boats. In the UK we have split the trophies between ICs and ACs and I expect the UK sailing committee will now reallocate some trophies to the one design fleet.
To pick up your point Colin, I believe the Europa Cup trophy will be awarded to the first IC (whether it be a new rules or OD design), but I should imagine the Swedish organisers are very likely to wish to present additional prizes to the OD fleet. So don't hold back with your order for a new boat - Andy Paterson has already taken one order (before the ICF sailing committee decision!) and I suspect there will be more.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:19 pm 
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I hope you are right Phil about the 2009 Europa Cup. I am still inclined to wait for confirmation from the ICF Sailing Committee that your understanding of their decision is correct before I make any definite plans for a new boat rather than sticking with my One Design. In any case, 2008 is going to be ‘the year of the new Newman Moth’. (If you go to the UK Moth web site you will discover that simply ordering a new foiling Moth at 65 gets you nominated and profiled as ‘Mothie of the Month’ for April by Mothie of the Month for March, Graham Vials, who was nominated following his triumph in the Tiger Trophy!) I also want to see which designs of new 50 Kg ICs do best in light winds and in a blow (the conditions when joining in handicap racing at my home club in which I mostly race the IC rather than the Moth). Still, when planning for 2009 it is important to know well ahead what boats will qualify for entry in both national and international competitions like the Europa Cup as the ICF sailing committee decision thus far leaves room for some uncertainty.

Gareth seems to have missed the fact that there are choices for national committees to make implied in the reports of the ICF Sailing Committee decision (as with choice of lucky Bermudan shorts vs. hot pants for a team uniform!... Sorry, in joke with Gareth!) and that when you start awarding prizes to a fleet within a fleet, how the scoring is done can produce different winners, so choosing the way to score needs to be settled before the start of a competition. Major changes always take a while to bed in, but I am looking forward to Ben’s comments after the ICF BOD meeting.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Colin
Yes, there can be possible decisions within each individual national committee. What i was trying to suggest, without too many words (!), was that I think that if we have voted for the Dc to superceed the Ic, then we have to 'go for it'! Not 'pussy foot' around giving the prizes to the boats we have voted to superceed, as in a 'few' years time every boat will be the 'new style' IC.
In the interim period, yes, national committees can award prizes to the one design IC.....but I feel that most of the attention should be on the 'new'ICs as, without this, 'progress' will be slowed. 'Hats off' to the guys who have put their money where their votes are....they deserve the recognition/ prizes etc. If your sitting on the fence, now's the time to get a move on if you want to be 'in the money'.
It's all to do with choices at the end of the day....I'll stick with the AC ( and well done to Robbo for putting his time and £ into developing what is, for me, the boat of choice), many will stick with the one design IC, but many will choose the IC.
All can be sailed against each other, but if people need to chase prizes, shouldn't we primarily deliver prizes to the IC fleet in order to foster growth. I know I'll not win anything when sailing against the ICs without the kite, but I still wouldnt (at the moment!) change ny choice of craft for anything else.
ps realise that scoring systems can mean a change in final placings, but feel that every craft should be scored together, and results only extrapolated at the end of the regatta for the one designs. They should not be having a race within a race as this depleats the fleet and we are not large enough to do this.
By the way....cracking sail at Carsington today :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Thanks Gareth for clarifying your views. I fully buy into your concept of the way ahead in the UK if that is what the rest of the British IC fleet want. Having things clarified by national committees as soon as possible will permit everyone to plan accordingly. I am probably one of the lucky ones in having the option to consider getting a new lighter boat but for several existing IC One Design sailors both in the UK and elsewhere, in the rest of Europe especially, it will be a while before they can afford to up grade, so steps need to be taken to retain their enthusiasm for racing their older boats. (Hence my concern to know for sure the conditions for the next Europa Cup as I enjoy international events best of all.)

From my experience of Moths it has always struck me how as soon as something more exciting came along ( narrow skiffs, then more recently hydrofoils) it took only a year or two for virtually the entire fleet to adopt the change and start foiling. In the UK it was in 2004 that the first three Mothies raced with hydrofoils, by 2007 virtually nobody was turning up at opens without them and at the 2007 Worlds only 5 out of the 63 competitors were 'low riding'. You may have noticed that all 14 Moths at Grapham last weekend were using hydrofoils. I hope others are as enthusiastic as you are to embrace the change and to back the new rules IC, and who knows, you might be tempted out of your AC as the genuine international competition will be in the IC it now seems :) For me, the difficult choice will be which design of IC to chose and I may sit in my One Design for a while observing who is 'in the money' as I overcome any fears I have that I would not cope in the new lighter boat in a blow.

Cheers :D Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:54 pm 
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Folks,

Just back from ICF meeting. Proposal passed without problems. 5 minutes for 5 days.... anyway. I have to work out with the ICF office getting all the stuff down on paper, then do the minute of the SC meeting. Not going to do any of it now, time for the bunk.

Christian sent a beta of the dvd, but it got here the day after I left. I think there will be possibilities to use it on the icf site as well as big time elsewhere ( Sailing Anarchists)

Ben

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:57 pm 
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Ben Fuller wrote:
Folks,

Just back from ICF meeting. Proposal passed without problems. 5 minutes for 5 days.... anyway. I have to work out with the ICF office getting all the stuff down on paper, then do the minute of the SC meeting. Not going to do any of it now, time for the bunk.

Christian sent a beta of the dvd, but it got here the day after I left. I think there will be possibilities to use it on the icf site as well as big time elsewhere ( Sailing Anarchists)

Ben


Well done Ben,

As soon as I have decent copies of the ICF and ICF Sailing Logos [if you have copies then please email them to me], and the ICF Sailing Committee gives the go-ahead, we can get the DVD happening. We will then receive copies, plus it will be aired in Australia on Channel 31, and put onto Sailing Anarchy which we can then link to the site.

_________________
http://icflatpack.blogspot.com/
IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:48 am 
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Thank you to everyone who helped make this happen.

I'm looking forward to seeing the promotional video.

Best

John K.
USA-244


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Great to hear that the "DC" Rule has been passed by the ICF. Does this come into immediate effect?

We can now all look forward to exciting times in the canoe sailing world. My undestanding is that we have just one IC now under the new rule into which existing (Nethercot) ICs will fall. Prizes must be to the fastest boat/sailor, although there can also be prizes for the leading "one-design" ICs, just as there are at present for "Classic" ICs over a certain age. Best get building if you want to be at the front of the fleet.

I'm still wondering how I can get a spinnaker and pole into a very narrow bow.

Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Peter, Believe me it will fit! I was looking at doing just that to the Morrison plug before I gave up the stuggle to get it anywhere near 50kg (it was looking at 15 over 20with pole) And despite others being overweight it's lifespan would of been 2 years max.(40 mins to cut up!) So maybe this autumm I'll try again with an Andy shell, with Carbon seat should be very close to the mark. Of course quite why we should convert a DC to AC I dont know? but better than being mauled by RS's & alike downwind against the tide sub 10knots apparent.Regards Barry 176AC :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:12 pm 
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I am a litle reassured by the commitment from at least some in the UK that the IC and ODs will race together. I hope that is reflected in the rest of Europe.

Although inevitable, the early interest in fitting spinnackers to the narrow boats might somewhat kill new IC development if it means there is no ready market for old OD boats to be converted to ACs.

On the other hand once a few find how unsteady the 750 wide boat is during spin launch and retrieve, the idea might wane somewhat. It took me a long time to learn when to throw the seat during a gybe of the Hollow Log, so I truely doubt that it would suit an extra sail.

Theyreally are fast enough and exciting enough downwind without any extra.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Peter, Barry and others.
Please don't do that.
Play nicely with the guys who want kites and don't screw us up again.
SHC

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