The International Canoe

The forum for the International Canoe
It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:43 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
I am pleased to report to the class that the following was passed by the committee after considerable time looking at the ballot results which added two new nations but did not make a change in results.

This summary was written for the committee by Ola, and will be the committee resolution presented to the ICF BOD.

"The International 10sq M Canoe class should replace their current measurement rule (Appendix 2 2005) with the current development rules (Appendix 4 January 2008). The measurement rules of the AC ( Appendix 3) and Current IC (Appendix 2) remain unchanged, however the name of the current IC will be changed to "International 10sq M Canoe - One Design. "

What we call the current development rule is what I sent to the BOD when the final pre-meeting papers were put in, so I will have to sort out the appendices so that the one design rule is still part of the rule book.

Allan summarized the effects of this rule change:

Effects
The effect of this change will be as follows:
All of the current boats will measure within the new rules and will be able to race together on an equal basis as the ‘International 10 sq M Canoe’, or as separate fleets of pre-2008 rules ‘One Design’ and ‘Development Class’ canoes. It may also be possible to race together and extract separate results on a handicap basis in local or National events.
The AC (Asymmetrical Spinnaker rigged canoe) will race separately as a separate fleet but will retain the opportunity to race as a ‘One Design’ canoe if the spinnaker is not carried. This is the case at present.
By adopting this rule change the International Sailing Canoe fraternity will enjoy the maximum choice of divisions in which to race and it is hoped that this will lead to a further increase in membership in all divisions on a global basis. It will become the only international sailing class to offer this range of options for the individual competitor and this will be a key element in the marketing and promotion of the class.
World Championship medals will be awarded to each division which meets the qualifying standard of entry; if neither non-spinnaker fleet meets the qualifying standard of entry they will be combined into a single fleet.

I appreciate your patience as the committee worked through issues of vote qualification due to ambiguities in the voting procedure language, an effort made to recontact several nations where we knew that there were IC's, and finally working out the principals by which all canoes Development and One Design can continue to play even if they don't carry spinnakers.

Minutes of the meeting will follow.

After sailing a canoe, sailing anything else is like kissing your sibling...... with apologies to Eric Twiname.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:42 am
Posts: 79
Location: Australia
So is this official, or does it still have to be approved by the ICF BOD? If so, is that just a rubber stamping exercise, and when will it happen?

Mal.

_________________
AUS019


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
I have to go to the ICF BOD meeting April 11/12. I do not anticipate any issues.

The next opportunity for technical rules changes is the spring of 2010, so if there are some warrented, there can be experiments and proposals and tests in the next year. For those that wonder about retention of the one design rule, there are fleets that will stay one design for a while, there is the issue of dealing with National trophies and regional regattas and there is the need to retain the rule for those that sail ACs. Overall the goal is to let everyone with a canoe continue to play, but set an upgrade path. We have seen that in software.....XP and Vista come to mind.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
Ben Fuller wrote:
XP and Vista come to mind.


Not the most comfortable of analogies to this IT techie...

Doesn't introducing a third category complicate the business of National trophies rather than simplify them? I don't follow the logic there.

May we have some more clarification from the committee on the reasoning behind what seems to me a somewhat controversial decision? I for one have always been very opposed to the idea of a third category of Canoe internationally, at least for separate starts/races, (no harm at all in having a division within a start/race like Steve's proposed Peter Nethercott trophy) and what we appear to have isn't what I thought I'd voted for. I can imagine all sorts of theories circulating the world before the truth has got is metaphoric boots on if you aren't careful...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
I did not say that life will be easier on a national level, only that each country will have to work it out. For example: suppose next year you have 3 new rules canoes and 15 one designs showing up to sail for a cherished piece of silver. What do you do? Not much of a boat race if its left to 3 boats to fight for the auld mug.... the rest of the folks are trailing in the dust. There will be rapid loss of interest. I suggest that it will take some work to sort. I can think of one famous race that for a while they had to deal with this: Bermuda Race.

What it comes down to is that the class is too small to dump any of the older boats. This was recognized and accepted by the committee and leadership. Transition will take some time.

The ballot to make the DC the International Canoe was passed and was approved by the committee, (which of course could have tossed the rules change procedure as it was a committee decision in 98 to introduce same. All previous rules changes including the change to one design were pure committee decisions.)

So I don't see what the problem is with keeping the one design rule in the book; it had to be done anyway for the ACs. If it gets us some more canoes at a regatta its fine. If enough show up at a Worlds to merit a start as a separate class, how does that impact the decision to build a new IC?

Nuff said.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:34 am
Posts: 239
Location: Australia
How each nation approaches its silverwhere is as stated up to each nation and will produce some very different methods for deciding who will be eligable to take home the silver, this will develop by each country over the years and provide a direction for International Competition in due course. (Im lucky, as I will soon have a foot in both camps)

The rule change opens up new possiblities for encourging Nethercott owners to keep turning up to the regattas, by commissioning new trophies for either the new IC or Nethercott (for each nation to decide) and retaining their current silver will create a seprate prize within a regatta for the Nethercott to compete for at national or regional level, an example is Steve's proposed Peter Nethercott Trophy.

Also as I see it, it will be most of the pointy end of the Nethercott 's sailors building new IC's, like me looking for a new challenge after having sailed Nethercott's for some time now. With the pointy end of the fleet moving to their new challenge it will open the battle for the silver to more of the current Nethercott owners. For example in Australia our prized peice of silver has only ever been won by 4 different people and since 1990 its narrows down to 3 different people. Two division within the one fleet with more prizes makes the travelling more worth while for all and I believe will make the battles for each prize really interesting as more Nethercott sailors will become real chances of winning their peice of silver and the new IC sailors will be spending some time working out how to make their new challenge work (even how to stay infront of Nethercott's in all conditions).

Having different divisions withing the fleet hasn't hurt the Moths (Foiler, Sea hugger, Scow)

H.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:54 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Australia
Quote:
Having different divisions withing the fleet hasn't hurt the Moths (Foiler, Sea hugger, Scow)


Good point and good example. The International Moth class world wide has ONE set of rules and ONE start for all types of boats together.

There are other national moth type classes which have broken away or have always been separate from the International Class, just as there are in canoes. But these are small in number, spread and shrinking (except maybe Europe at least while it was propped up by the Olympics).

I do not think continuing 3 international canoe classes is supportable within the canoe community. The danger is all will suffer.

_________________
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
Do we seriously think that new boats will be built to the OD rule anywhere except in Britain? And then mostly for AC use? This system shows the way for class growth, while letting people who have older equipment still play. The only thing that the keeping the OD rule might do is keeping people from building a new boat and playing with their old one longer. If these folks would have trashed their old boat in favor of a new one perhaps it was a mistake; but I find it much more likely that the old boat would have turned into a barn queen and the owner would have turned to something else.

Again I pose the question: in a given country there are 3 new boats, 15 old ones. What happens? Regattas for 3 boats? How can you get 18 to play?

Of course if some people want to start up a buy back and trade in program that's another matter.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:02 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Australia
Ben Fuller wrote:
Again I pose the question: in a given country there are 3 new boats, 15 old ones. What happens? Regattas for 3 boats? How can you get 18 to play?

Of course if some people want to start up a buy back and trade in program that's another matter.


Whilst we need to have our AGM to get approval, our Nationals (delayed whilst the ballot was on) will happen in October, and I will put forward that all IC's that measure as IC's race for the National Championship. The Nationals will also continue to recognise the first Nethercott home as well as continue to issue our Handicap trophy (which can incorporate Yardstick and handicap to reward the most improved of all IC sailors).

That trade in idea isn't too far off the mark, many OD owners have upgraded their rigs to where they are now. Those updated carbon rigs can fit straight onto a new hull (saving thousands on initial costs in upgrading), then put your old rig back on your OD and sell it at an entry level price to get someone new into the class (who can learn in an OD, upgrade a rig, race, bolt rig onto development boat, and sell OD on to a new class member......).

_________________
http://icflatpack.blogspot.com/
IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
I think for those of us new to the class the nature of the process, which is more like a representational democracy than the Athenian democracy used in most sailboat classes, takes a bit of getting used to.

Realistically Phil, when I think about it, although I don't like the theory, any problems will all come in what the National Associations do on the water,and that would have been the case anyway. Provided they start all boats that measure as ICs together and just extract results for the one design the end result will be just the same as the two classes I voted for. And if they decide to start them separately, well, they could have done that anyway under SIs...

And Ben, you're getting far too focussed on performance differentials... The range of finish times in most Champs fleets is reckoned to be around 20%. In a more challenging boat like the IC it is probably greater. Such a difference masks differences in boat speed spectacularly, and in practice ICs and 1dCs will scrap together quite happily. Put me an a new IC against last years UK fleet in 1dCs and I might finish a couple of places higher, but I still wouldn't be challenging the likes of Simon Allen and Mark Goodchild. So for the vast majority of us, who don't realistically expect to be on the podium, everyone can happily play together and will have more fun if we do. National Authorities, please remember that and don't split the starts...

[Added a few hours later]

And also I would say trophy wise all International Canoes should sail for the main International Canoe trophies. At least in the UK most of them predate the one design era anyway. If I remember correctly Mark and Simon would have beaten the DCs at most UK events last year, so both groups should be competing for the main silver.

Another argument against too much emphasis on the 1dC is that it discourages people from removing the lead and otherwise lightening their Nethercotts. On the water we shall see, but off the water the removal of 20kg or more has completely transformed my Nethercott. What was a struggle to pull up steep ramps at my club is now not an issue at all. Its *wonderful*!


Last edited by jimc on Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:18 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Oz
right on jim!

i was tail end charlie at the worlds (in a N/cott), but most races i had one or another of the then DCs to play with. 8)

_________________
its a young world after all - well, maybe ... the two oldies scored 1st & 2nd (and 1st!) .........


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:46 pm
Posts: 236
Location: United Kingdom
I am still getting my head round exactly what has been agreed. I fear I am confused as we still seem to be having things all ways at once!! Does it mean that the 2009 'Europa Cup' (the actual glass) will go to the first non-spinnaker International Canoe to win the event (likely to be a post 2008 rules boat which until now has been called the DC) as these boats will be racing in one fleet with the now to be called 'One Design' (Nethcott) boats? This is what I think we voted for. It will then be up to the organising committee for the event to provide a new trophy for the first Pre-2008 rules boat, the newly designated 'One Design' and to call this winnner 'IC One Design European Champion' if they want. Likewise, at this year's UK Nationals at Dale the 'IC National Champion' will be the first placed non-spinnaker pre or post 2008 rules International Canoe in the event even if the BCU Sailing Committee choses to introduce a new category of 'One Design IC National Champion' much as we currently have a Masters National Champion (who can still be the overall winner). Have I got it right?

If I have, then presumably as the pre and post 2008 rules boats are racing as one fleet, current prizes for 'Master' or 'Junior' etc will go to whichever pre or post 2008 rules boat is highest placed in the finishing order, again leaving it to the organising committee to add new prizes for first One Design Master if they wish. Pot hunters (those hoping to win the Europa Cup, for instance) will thus have every incentive to move on to the 50Kg post 2008 rules boats as they will be less likely to win the historic top prizes in a heavy 'One Design' boat. I am however confused by Alan's account of the Committee's decision when he implies that at a future World Championships the 'One Design' and post 2008 boats will be combined into one fleet if neither qualifies for world entry status on its own (or something like that). This implies that as at the 2008 Worlds in Australia, at the 2011 Worlds the DCs and standard ICs we had this year will still be racing as separate fleets! Surely the fleets will in the future automatically be racing as one, even if there is a new prize for the first 'One Design' World Champion within the single set of results? Thus, the overall, non-spinaker IC World Champion will be the first DC or standard IC in the event to use the terminology of the 2008 Worlds. They will in future be one class, all in the same event. If not then we are left with three classes of boat, so what's then new? I think the example of Moths is correct, the non-foilers (which in theory but not in practice can still win the overall World Champion trophy) race with the foilers. There is however a prize for the first non-foiler (which finished 26th out of 63 boats at Garda in 2007). Put me right if I have got it wrong!

Colin Newman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 21
Location: USA
Colin,

You pretty much have it right. Individual countries can organize things as they wish. In order to keep up the interest in sailing the older boats, if a separate trophy is not given, consideration could be given to Portsmouth numbers.

As far as the worlds go, the basic boat is the International ( old DC rule) boat into which One Designs measure. If we are lucky enough to get six countries showing with new boats and six with old boats, we could have WC medals for each ( and for ACs) as the ICF rule is 3 continents over all divisions 6 countries in any division. If we have six countries only for new and old rules boats together, then there will be one set of medals.

If all of this had been in effect in Australia since we did not have six countries in new rules boats, everybody would have sailed and started together. If we had six in each kind we could have had two medals.

Goal here is to get new boats built using new rules, but keep the old boats from becoming dust collectors.

Off to madrid to get this passed at ICF level.

_________________
Ben Fuller
Macavity
USA 172


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:54 pm
Posts: 69
Location:
Colin
Well done for organizing our thoughts!
How did you only manage to use 453 words, instead of me having to settle down to read mega pages .............!
Think this will be a positive move forward for the ICs, and the only one that really makes sense with the post 08 canoes being made......well, at least those without the added benefit of kites!

:lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing Committee Ballot report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:12 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United Kingdom
I think the issues being raised in response to the sailing committee's decision are more theoretical than real. Even if the Nethercot (one design) had not been refered to in the rules, there would have been some recognition (i.e. prizes) at IC competions in the next few years for sailors in pre-2008 rule boats - as a penultimate rule boat. All the committee's decision does in practice is to formalise the position and give these boats a name - one design is preferable to classic, in my view.
The IC rule is now Appendix 4 and I feel very positive that we have ended a period of uncertainty (subject to ICF ratification later this week) and are now able to market the boat on this basis.
The ICF sailing committee had some difficult issues to grapple with and I would like to thank them for their hard work and reaching a decision that I am sure will be very positive for the future growth and success of the IC.

_________________
Phil
K 41 Conquest


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group