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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:56 pm 
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Barry Watkin wrote:
Steve, Any news on your new machine yet? or have you cut out the build process And bought Robin's?
Needed to wave the AC flag a bit as we cant let these IC(DC) types rule the website ( that should of lit the blue touch paper!) Regards Barry :mrgreen: xAC176


Maybe he's seen the light and is building a new IC 8)

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:23 pm 
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And race against who? :twisted:
This message is brought to you by 'Tongue in Cheek.com!' :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Barry Watkin wrote:
And race against who? :twisted:
This message is brought to you by 'Tongue in Cheek.com!' :mrgreen:


The rest of the World :D

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:27 am 
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Barry,

Thanks for the post. Build well underway, all frames in place and spinnaker chute made and installed (under deck). New central spinnaker pole "canyon" sorted and all ready for foredeck. I have taken a load of photos which I have been keeping for the new website which Ed has made great progress on but since you've asked I will load a few photos later of how she looks at the moment.

No deck skins on yet but she still only weight 22.3Kg.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Location: Plymouth, Devon, UK
we need to see some photos :!:

Chris Hampe
IC GBR 238

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Chris,

Yes, OK :!: - can't find the programming lead from PC to camera with that silly little connector on it.

I have delayed publication as I wanted to make sure it was all going to work before putting head above parapit :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:10 pm 
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OK - head above parapitt time :)

Some photos of new boat - Jet - (yes it will be all black).

Photo 1 shows new pole arrangement coming straight out the front. The pole runs down a 'canyon' which will hide all control lines and makes the pole outhaul a bit simpler using a modified RS700 type arrangement. The Canyon will be open but have a cover fitted. Note also forestay pulley will be below deck to make the whole foredeck clean.

Photo 2 shows the canyon and new mast step arrangemement which will be open giving a more modern look with the foredeck sweeping down in an arc in the rear scallops which can't be seen yet.

Photo 3 shows the chute in place made of kevlar for wear resistance with a glass coating and several layers of epoxy sealer. This will be covered with the dancing deck which will be curved for strength and also shed water over the side. Central well is formed to get kicker footing as low as possible (didn't want to use a GNAV or lowers) and also drain water. The central well will also take the spinnaker halyard and elastic takeaway system to keep the cockpit clear of ropes. Note foredeck is much more arched than normal to shed water and give more height for end of chute as it needs a strighter run to avoid friction. Spinnkaker chute mouth will be slightly further forward than normal to allow for a new idea for a lower patch to avoid the foot of the kite falling in the water on a drop. Still need to work this out fully but should make the dreaded spinnker traul a thing of the past of it works.

So there we have it. Still plenty to do but most if the planning done. Mostly a case of getting the decking on and..... making foils and...... carriage and seat - bugger this could take a while!


Attachments:
File comment: Jet -view of pole exit and foredeck
37 Front view chute fitted small.JPG
37 Front view chute fitted small.JPG [ 175.86 KB | Viewed 8517 times ]
File comment: Jet - rear view showing chute
44 Stbd broadsides small.JPG
44 Stbd broadsides small.JPG [ 141.97 KB | Viewed 8479 times ]
File comment: Jet - Foredeck detail
39 Foredeck frames small.JPG
39 Foredeck frames small.JPG [ 189.22 KB | Viewed 8483 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:46 am 
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Looks good, but how is it coming in weight wise? Seems like a heck of a lot of infrastructure up fwd compared to AUS018 and it's false deck arrangement (pics off of the TW Yacht design website here http://www.twyachtdesign.com/default.as ... s/13167/0/).
Keep up the great work (even if it's not an international boat 8) )

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IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:38 am 
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Steve well done you have been busy, your pole well must give ample stiffeness to the structure foreward. The idea of building your kite chute into the hull / dance floor should make life a lot simpler and straight forward once youve sorted the inevitable rigging issues. I saw Bob & Gav at Carbon Craft do this on a 14 last year and again they felt it gave a cleaner less friction solution. The minimal extra weight not an issue, better to have it in structure (in the right place)than lead!
Look forward to seeing more as you progress and are you likely to take it to 'Ally pali'?
Regards Barry :mrgreen: XAC & still walking

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Last edited by Barry Watkin on Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:54 am 
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Hi Steve,

Looks pretty good - I've been thinking (but only that so far) along similar lines re your built in chute/pole access arrangements and I reckon yours should be the way to go. I can understand your reluctance to put your head above the parapet, but someone has to do it or we can't see what's going on!
I put a chute in my old wooden boat last year - some interesting keyhole surgery was required as I didn't take the decks off to do it - and it worked fine, but sailing in the short chop we get off Brightlingsea a lot of the time it filled with water, the kite blocked the run off, and I was sailing with a bucket or two of water in the bows making the whole situation worse. Now, I don't know if this is a common problem, or just a design flaw (mine) - I'd be interested to hear from others regarding this situation.
It made me think about something similar to this boat http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=52 - it certainly seems to solve the pole access/small chute business, but the fact that there doesn't seem to be any others about in similar style makes me wonder if it had some major fault. Sure, it would take a lot of water over the deck, but there was an awful lot shipped over my foredeck when the wind was over the tide in a good blow and at least there'd be no chute to fill up. It also seems to have the advantage of being relatively easy to complete for an amateur builder without too much time on his hands. Barring the little bit of foredeck at the bow, it resembles an RS700 or Musto Skiff, and it's pretty much the same arrangement as my old Buzz and Iso. Comments anyone?
Steve, I'd also be interested in how you've made your hull. Is there a mould available? I'd looked at making one like the Aussie flatpack IC (great story - every episode is more interesting than Eastenders!), but think that by the time I'd made up the mould the sailing season will be over!
Keep up the good work - and a happy new year to all Canoeists, whatever flavour!
Cheers,

David

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Guys,

Thanks for your constructive comments.

Christian - infrastructure makes it stiff and is needed to take load of pole and also forestay. Whole pole assembly only weighs about 2kg and the beams only weigh on average 100-220g so hardly anything really. Also means top deck can be thinner and lighter. Little point in making it too light and being well underweight otherwise I 'd have to sail it as a new IC with a kite - that would confuse things! It currently weighs 22kg. And do stop sniping about the DC, the AC is popular here, we get at least 5-8 boats out every weekend at our club and its growing and frankly the international scene is of less interest to most.

Barry - its worth a go as it will make boat handling easier I think, with less to trip over. Can't do Ally Pally sadly as will be in Rome watching the Rugby.

David - hull is a standard Razorback from Rob Michael. I wouldn't attempt a Nethercott hull as an amateur. I am concerned about the kite holding water so I have tipped the chute over at an angle so that water collects on the inside and then intend to take a drainage pipe into the cockpit or out through the hull like on existing boats. Also the bows will be higher to reduce amount of water over front albeit going through a big wave will always be a problem. I have wondered about some kind of flap arrangement over the chute mouth to reduce this.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:15 pm 
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Thanks Steve,

Pleased to hear (in one way) that the chute problem isn't unique to me - it's a tough one to solve for those of us that sail on the choppy stuff. Short of having a chute the size of the front of the boat it seems that there's no easy way round it.

I also agree with you about the DC. There are some fantastic looking boats out there and the energy and invention that's going in to them is something to behold. I have considered building one, but in the end these factors weigh against it:
1. I don't really understand the marine architecture enough to come up with something that would be guaranteed to work (does anyone?)
2. What might work here wouldn't work on a lake.
3. It's a lot of money to spend on an experimental boat which almost certainly won't recoup its value should you need to sell it (if you can find someone that wants it).
4. I've got enough excuses as to why I can't go fast without adding the hull design to the list.
5. My IC/AC is quite hard enough to sail - I don't need to make it more difficult with a narrower, less stable (if I've read a lot of the reports correctly) hull.
6. Where I sail, we sometimes get 2 mile downwind legs - without a kite you're history in the light stuff against the tide and I don't believe (and I'll stand correction if someone can really demonstrate otherwise) that the lighter DC would show the performance gain to win against the B14s, 29ers, RS700s and others that make up most of my opposition over long legs like that (and it's very dull with no extra strings to pull!)
7. The big flappy thing at the front adds extra excitement, adrenaline, terror (for those nearby as well as me) and fun - making the boat the ultimate sailing challenge.
8. Would a lightweight Nethercot be any slower than the latest designs? In the hands of a skilled helm I suspect not....Perhaps you should leave the correctors out, Steve!!!
I don't want to ignite the DC/AC debate - I'm all for both. Just that there are good reasons why I'm sure many won't be jumping ship from 'old' to new.

Cheers,

David

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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:00 pm 
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SteveC wrote:
Guys,

Thanks for your constructive comments.

Christian - infrastructure makes it stiff and is needed to take load of pole and also forestay. Whole pole assembly only weighs about 2kg and the beams only weigh on average 100-220g so hardly anything really. Also means top deck can be thinner and lighter. Little point in making it too light and being well underweight otherwise I 'd have to sail it as a new IC with a kite - that would confuse things! It currently weighs 22kg. And do stop sniping about the DC, the AC is popular here, we get at least 5-8 boats out every weekend at our club and its growing and frankly the international scene is of less interest to most.



Steve, again looking good, I also thought it looked like a truck load of structure forward, I can understand the front bulkhead to support the pole, I would have thought the "canyon" would provide so much stiffness the other bulk heads could at least be trimmed down/simplfied somewhat and still have a nice light fordeck, the real benefit being an easier build. I do like the idea of the chute under the deck and cleaning up the amount of mess that the majortiy of existing AC's Ive seen to date have.

H.
P.S. DC's are no longer, we are back to IC's and AC's well at least internationally that is.
P.P.S. Its a shame the AC's are so popular in the UK that your most successful IC sailor is making the move to Moth's because of lack of numbers on the water. (couldn't resist sorry)


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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:49 pm 
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Mudman wrote:
Thanks Steve,

Pleased to hear (in one way) that the chute problem isn't unique to me - it's a tough one to solve for those of us that sail on the choppy stuff. Short of having a chute the size of the front of the boat it seems that there's no easy way round it.

I also agree with you about the DC. There are some fantastic looking boats out there and the energy and invention that's going in to them is something to behold. I have considered building one, but in the end these factors weigh against it:
1. I don't really understand the marine architecture enough to come up with something that would be guaranteed to work (does anyone?)
2. What might work here wouldn't work on a lake.
3. It's a lot of money to spend on an experimental boat which almost certainly won't recoup its value should you need to sell it (if you can find someone that wants it).
4. I've got enough excuses as to why I can't go fast without adding the hull design to the list.
5. My IC/AC is quite hard enough to sail - I don't need to make it more difficult with a narrower, less stable (if I've read a lot of the reports correctly) hull.
6. Where I sail, we sometimes get 2 mile downwind legs - without a kite you're history in the light stuff against the tide and I don't believe (and I'll stand correction if someone can really demonstrate otherwise) that the lighter DC would show the performance gain to win against the B14s, 29ers, RS700s and others that make up most of my opposition over long legs like that (and it's very dull with no extra strings to pull!)
7. The big flappy thing at the front adds extra excitement, adrenaline, terror (for those nearby as well as me) and fun - making the boat the ultimate sailing challenge.
8. Would a lightweight Nethercot be any slower than the latest designs? In the hands of a skilled helm I suspect not....Perhaps you should leave the correctors out, Steve!!!
I don't want to ignite the DC/AC debate - I'm all for both. Just that there are good reasons why I'm sure many won't be jumping ship from 'old' to new.

Cheers,

David


Once again the DC's are no longer :)

I'll being heading down to McCrae in the near future and will be sailing against one/some of the best B14 sailors in the World so we will have a good idea of the performance difference between a new rules IC and a B14 as for the other classes 29ers I found are somewhat slower than a Nethercott anyway any slight advantage they have on a run is more than lost on the beat, RS never raced against one only seen a few at Hayling Island once many years ago, until I sail against one I'll reserve any comment.

New rules IC v's Nethercott = big difference, having built and sailed both the new boats are just so much faster and nicer to sail its almost beyond belief and are also cheaper to build as basically they are built from the same material but there is less of it.

As for knowing about how to design a hull its not a must there is heaps of info available world wide that you can get a great starting point to make some changes if you want. Im talking from experience here I know bugger all about hull design, I've learnt heaps since having a go at designing (well taking a proven design and adding some changes as I felt might be better) its a really rewarding challenge, the info I've had supplied world wide has been amazing and the replies to the cry's of "help" was even more amazing. So what Im saying is you can safely design and build a new rules IC that will be in the ball park without any previous experience, the info and help is freely available.

The new boats are a little harder to sail but not in anyway impossibly tippy like a sea hugging Moth. They are a little less forgiving than the nethercott in light gusty conditions resulting in a quicker dunking if you dont react fast enough but then you are free to make your design more forgiving if thats what you sail in all the time.

Lake v's Ocean well I'm not convienced on that agruement (oh dear about to get flamed here Im sure), I've sailed on both spend more time on a lake but still remain more than competitive on the deep dark blue stuff against the same boats, the critical factor is the idiot at the end of the tiller pointing the boat in the wrong direction more than the others (Im guilty you honor).

There are some good reasons why not to go down the AC path also,

1. Cost
2. W-L course = boring
3. Basically only a UK class with some Germans also having a play
4. Outside the Uk very little support (I was dropped like the peice of crap because I didn't race as an AC in 2005, not by all but by enough)
5. With W-L course the lightest helm with the biggest kite wins so its an expensive arms races with the big flappy thing at the front
6. During the pre-worlds in McCrae (one course, one start) the AC's really didn't perform
7. Too much extra crap needed on what should be a clean effecient design for only an increace in down wind performance, but a loss in upwind performance.

So I guess its each to their own, from my experience the help provided (not just offered) when I started designing and building my new IC was briliant and still is. The increase in performance in all aspects of sail is truely amazing the boats are so smooth to sail and in some ways easier/more forgiving that Im extremely glad I stuck with the IC's and cant wait till Germany 2011.

H.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Developments and boats in build
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:54 pm 
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Mudman wrote:
1. I don't really understand the marine architecture enough to come up with something that would be guaranteed to work (does anyone?)


In the UK I reckon the Morrison is a very safe option for the experienced Canoe sailor. It might not turn out to be the easiest of ICs to sail, but its going to be about the pace for a good while I reckon.

Mudman wrote:
8. Would a lightweight Nethercot be any slower than the latest designs?

I can answer that pretty safely in the affirmative. The boat is just *so* much nicer to own at I guess about 40kg lighter off the water (about 20 each from boat and new alloy trolley I reckon) that I couldn't consider going back to an 83kg boat, but its not in the same ballpark as the Morrison speed wise...


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