DC ballot

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:46 am

Phil Stevenson wrote: PS. The wait for the ballot result is getting stressful.
Eager and curious for me, but not particularly stressed - I sincerely hope for the class's sake that the new rules are accepted so we can concentrate and focus the current momentum. But I would be disappointed but not surprised if it doesn't pass, for a class that has been at the cutting edge of technology in the past, we are very conservative. Preferring to see negligible International class growth than try something new. Having said that, I was incredibly impressed by the DC support at the Worlds, and to me international competition is the focus of an International Class.

And so we wait...

H Virtue
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Post by H Virtue » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:01 am

I'm going with "stressful". Here we are only weeks away from knowing the result of the ballot and Im weeks away from having a new boat built to the hopefully new rules. Something tells me I should have waited longer before ordering materials.

Arrrh bugger it after sailing Josie, Mayhem and String Theory at the Worlds, quote "I have to have one".

H.

Dunno
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Post by Dunno » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:08 pm

Wait, let me gets this straight. A heap of boats were built to 'proposed' rules. There was 100% support from those that made the effort to go the worlds.

Now, there is a chance that the rules wont be accepted

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Post by jimc » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:28 pm

Dunno wrote:Wait, let me gets this straight. A heap of boats were built to 'proposed' rules. There was 100% support from those that made the effort to go the worlds. Now, there is a chance that the rules wont be accepted
Oh completely, but we all knew the risk.

I've spent quite a lot of money getting my Nethercott down well below the current rule minimum weight, and it will be frustrating if I have to bolt some big heavy lumps of wood to my carriage to make the 73kg before correctors limit. People with real DCs don't even have that option. On reflection we should have put a lot more effort into communicating with the Germans and Swedes: we've been guilty of being excessively english language centric.

But think of the alternative. It would be completely and utterly wrong if a bunch of folk could say that just because we've built boats you've got to change the rules: we don't care what you think... I'm trying to think of the worrd, not blackmail but close... It was pretty disgraceful that the Tornado class got railroaded by ISAF to change their rules to include two strings and kites when it didn't have worldwide class support.

These ballots are deliberately conservative, needing a lot of support to pass, far more than a plain majority. This is quite right - I've seen a class get into the state where they change rules so often that scarcely 10% of the fleet is up to current specification, and the rest are in various states of less or more competent conversion towards that point from anything up to three rule revisions previously... Its not really a fleet to race in! Ask why Andy Paterson and I are in the Canoe fleet at all... In this case I firmly believe that the class has a problem and the DC looks like being a solution to the problem, but if I and other enthusiasts have failed to convince an adequate majority that's down to us, not them. I would expect that the folk who travel to a worlds, especially AUS, which is a long way for an average sailor, would be unrepresentative of the fleet at large.

If it doesn't go through I'll probably pick up one of the existing DCs for club racing rather than build a new one. I know my club won't mind me racing a boat without an official class association - I've done it before, and a light boat will be more fun for club handicap sailing full stop.
Last edited by jimc on Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dunno
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Post by Dunno » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:11 pm

Remember this is looking from someone that is still really an outsider to the class.

Not meaning to offend, but my point that I meant to make was this. If the new rules arnt accepted will because of people that weren't interested in making the effort to go to the worlds(abit harsh maybe, because I know there would be alot of reasons why people couldn't go)....but 13 DC's to 22 IC's, seems pretty massive interest (in time and money) ina very short time. And just look at the discussion on SA....

Now, I prefer one-design racing, but seems stupid if all that interest is rejected...

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Post by andersp » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:13 pm

After listening in to the e-mail discussion between my Swedish compatriots, I think they are unlikely to approve of the DC. The main argument seems to be that their fleet of boats will be instantly obsoleted. Many Swedish IC sailors have some kind of boat building background through the junior program, but seem to have lost that interest due to lack of time or other commitments. For them the easiest route forwards is status quo where they can continue to race their current boats.

Note that I may not agree with their position, so don't shoot the messenger.

Anders
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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:51 pm

andersp wrote:After listening in to the e-mail discussion between my Swedish compatriots, I think they are unlikely to approve of the DC. The main argument seems to be that their fleet of boats will be instantly obsoleted. Many Swedish IC sailors have some kind of boat building background through the junior program, but seem to have lost that interest due to lack of time or other commitments. For them the easiest route forwards is status quo where they can continue to race their current boats.

Note that I may not agree with their position, so don't shoot the messenger.

Anders
Cheers for that Anders, I think most of us expected Sweden to be conservative - though to my thinking if there is little to no class growth anyway then why not look at other options. Nethercotts won't be obsolete, if the ballot is successful they'll just compete for a different trophy at World level.

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Post by Olle » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:36 pm

Please forgive me, but I have not started to look at the ballot issues until now.
I have not been all that active in the class since the 2002 worlds.

As I read it, a ballot "YES to DCs " result would mean the following at the next worlds :
- The "Classic" IC sailors would start together with 30 Kg lighter DCs and would probably be given a little to much of a challenge to win a worlds title.
- The "Classic" fleet would not be given a chance to race for a World Championship by themself if they would meet the ICF numbers for world status on their own.

What status will a ballot "NO to DCs" result end up with for the DC class at the next worlds ?


Hope for your answers
Olle
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Post by jimc » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:37 pm

andersp wrote:For them the easiest route forwards is status quo where they can continue to race their current boats.
Its a very easy attitude to understand. The counter, of course, is that thetre's nothing quite so obsolete as a boat of a class no-one wants to sail any more. Talk to english owners off Laser 5000s for instance. But we should have engaged in the dialogue with them much earlier: its too late now!

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Post by Christian AUS » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:02 pm

Olle wrote:Please forgive me, but I have not started to look at the ballot issues until now.
I have not been all that active in the class since the 2002 worlds.

As I read it, a ballot "YES to DCs " result would mean the following at the next worlds :
- The "Classic" IC sailors would start together with 30 Kg lighter DCs and would probably be given a little to much of a challenge to win a worlds title.
- The "Classic" fleet would not be given a chance to race for a World Championship by themself if they would meet the ICF numbers for world status on their own.

What status will a ballot "NO to DCs" result end up with for the DC class at the next worlds ?


Hope for your answers
Olle
Hi Olle, welcome back to the fold:
You are right, Nethercott sailors would be starting next to their lighter/newer counterparts if the world votes Yes. They would compete for the Peter Nethercott Trophy that Steve Clark is donating and could still have a chance of winning the worlds in the right conditions (as Hayden showed in the pre-worlds. In countries that don't have DC's then there is no effect until International Regattas. In countries with mixed fleets then, we can continue to support existing fleets - encourage people to upgrade if they are keen and promote the Nethercott as the entry step into the class, or a path to AC via conversion.

If the world votes No, then I would assume that DC's may be given the same options as AC's: Get six nations and possibly get invited to compete at the next Worlds.... Would saying No increase growth in the Nethercott IC, probably not.

As Jim C says:
there's nothing quite so obsolete as a boat of a class no-one wants to sail any more.

H Virtue
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Post by H Virtue » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:24 pm

Its great for to hear the Swedish view, even if its a view some of us dont want to hear. It would be great to hear from you more often and on that point from the Germans, and every other nation who has an interest in sailing canoes.

As I see it voting yes to the ballot would achieve the following:
We have one start on course which would give some brilliant racing and set a great challenge for all in some case for the Nethercotts to beat as many DC's and be first Nethercott and on the flip side for some of the DC's to not be beaten by Nethercotts.
Its a fact the DC's are faster in a straight line but they are not always faster around a course if they aren't pointed in the right direction a well sailed Nethercott can still beat DC's I won two heats (on the water) of the pre-worlds so it is still possible that a well sorted Nethercott pointed in the right direction enough can still win.
The Nethercotts would still be racing for their own World Championship within the DC rule, in the same fashion the Junior World Champsionship was run and won i.e. they raced in the same fleet as the IC's and scored results in the IC's but their results were also taken out and seperated to determine the Junoir World Champ. Steve Clark is putting together a trophy exactly for that, which he is calling the "Peter Nethercott Trophy"
Yes, will tell the World we are united about sailing IC's.
Yes to the ballot would allow all up and coming IC sailors start somewhere before taking the plunge into a DC and still be able to aspire to win a World Championship and for those still happy with the Nethercott keep racing them.

Saying NO to the ballot could give the same result as how you see voting yes. With the momentum which is growing behind the DC internationally it is quite realistic that enough nations to achieve a Worlds status might not happen for either DC's or Nethercotts. It comes down to the core group of sailors who are whilling and able to travel internationally every 3 years to compete. From what I saw at the last Worlds that group of travellers are all very keen for the DC's which if they have their own appendix rule they race under could result in not enough Nethercotts from enough nations travelling to achieve "Worlds status" voting yes where we all sail together will mean we have the best chance of achieving Worlds status for both divisions.

I think the DC's will stay on for the future (funny how we had to go back to go forward) they are generating a huge amount of interest internationally, more interest I have seen for Canoes in the 17+ years I have been in the class.

A NO to DC's can be seen as a NO to IC also. Where a YES is a YES to IC's and a YES to DC and a long term future for our class.

Regards
Hayden

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Post by Phil Stevenson » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:36 pm

If the vote is a No then there is solid evidence that there is a large number of canoe sailors in Europe who wish the DC to go away. The sailing Committee then has to decide whether to retain the DC as appendix iv to appease those who want to sail the type, or to delete it all together to appease those who voted against it.

In Australia probably the 4 or 5 most active canoe sailors have DCs or are building them. If they can not compete for a WC in 2011 I doubt they will be interested in going to Germany. I wonder if a similar situation will develop in the US. (+ NZ and Canada)

I can not see any one wanting to take Nethercott on the long trip in 2111, (except in the hope of selling it) so maybe there will be no canoe class at all which gets WC qualification numbers.

But the voting is over now and we will all have to wait untill, I believe, 17th March for the committee decision.
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
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Post by jimc » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:14 pm

Its difficult. If there's a sizeable no, for instance if Germany, Sweden and UK all vote solidly against it I think you have to consider that the die is cast. I don't think anyone wants three Canoe classes. But so far we have one 50/50 vote and the rest solidly in favour. Were the ballot to fail very narrowly with no countries solidly opposed then *perhaps* it would be right to seek the opinions of our friends in the countries whch voted no, and see if *they* think it would be worth looking at the issue again in a couple of years and keep the appendix 4 open. Those of us who greatly favour the idea would need to think of ways that folk in those countries could get experience of DCs to see if their concerns can be addressed. Its also worth noting that IIRC a DC is yet to win a significant race on the water in the UK against the best Nethercotts.

We must remember that there haven't to my knowledge been any DCs for them to look at, and I for one have been guilty of yabbering away in english without any consideration for them. I suggest what we mustn't do is give the impression that we don't care what they think and storm on anyway. If we do that they would be completely justified in doing exactly the same, and bingo, no International Canoe for anyone. I've had experience of International class splits over rules, and trust me, everyone loses.

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Post by Phil Robin » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:20 am

I agree with Hayden and Phil. If its a NO vote the best outcome would be Appendix 4 rule remains and once the NO voters have had a chance to see and sail a DC and experience how responsive it is, they will change their minds and wondered why they voted against it.

But sadly I suspect the next "Worlds" in Germany would not meet qualifying requirements to constitute a World championship in any Division and I think there would be limited entries.

A YES vote would lead to a significant number of new sailors attracted to the class, with many newcomers initially buying pre- 2008 rules boats (Nethercots) to learn how to sail the boat and get to gripe with the sliding seat, before geting a new rules boat. As a consequence the secondhand value of Nethercots is likely to be greater following the adoption of the new rules, rather than be less. Its all about demand and supply and if we do not amend the rules now, I forsee the demand for Nethercots declining as there will be less (and declining)interest in the class.
Phil
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Post by jkells » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:25 am

While the vote is still too early to call, it is too early to panic for those who are passionate supporters of adopting Appendix IV. Looking at the numbers for the national votes it looks like the 75% majority is within reach if only just. Assuming that the 75 % majority is achieved the nest step is unanimous support to adopt Appendix IV by the ICF Sailing Committee. I expect that the discussion of the merits of adopting Appendix IV as the new IC rule will be thorough and thoughtful as the future of the class is in the balance.

Here in the US, only 4 IC’s have been completed since 1999. By contrast 7 boats have been built here to Appendix IV in the past two years alone. The interest in the class generated by the new rule, especially by those new to the class is something that I have not seen in the 18 years that I have been in the class. It is the new members, and prospective members that we must look to for the future of the class. And as best I can tell, the newer & younger sailors are all looking at the DC’s, and not the Nethercott. The Nethercott has served the class well, but it is now a 40 year old design that is not attracting new sailors.

This increase in interest in the class can not be taken for granted as it is perishable, and I am certain that the increase in interest in the class will evaporate if the new rule is not adopted.

I share the concerns stated above, that if Appendix IV is not adopted now, the class will remain split and attendance at the 2011 Worlds will suffer to the point that ICF Worlds status will be difficult to acheive. Another consequence would be another 3 years where we can not effectively promote the class due to uncertainty of what the boat is as the DC concept has too much popular support to go away.

For now I remain cautiously optomistic that Appendix IV will be adopted when the ICF sailing committee meets in a few weeks time.

John K
USA-244

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