New Canoes/ Junior Canoes

Use this forum to discuss the latest changes in the class
nwitt
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Post by nwitt » Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:19 pm

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Posted by Steve Clark on 16.06.2003 at 16:22:13

I have long thought that we have two things to think about. One is Canoe sailing, which to me means sailing skinny boats with pointed sterns. ( in deference to Phil Evans I won't include sliding seats even though I think this is the third key element)
The Second thing is the health of the International Canoe class.
As expressed elsewhere, I believe the health of the International 10m^2 canoe is in serious trouble. But that does not necessarily mean that canoe sailing has to die with it.
THere has been, at various times discussion about Junior Canoes. There are two classes of them in Sweden, that haven't done much recently and which I feel are too similar to other youth training boats to be worth the trouble. What it seems to me that we need is a boat that is smaller and more managable than an IC but which is nevertheless more demanding than a Laser or any to the other Hikem down boats.
As luck would have it, Martin Herbert and I created one such beast 20 years ago. I m revitalizing it for David Clark ( just turned 12)
General perameters are as follows.
LOA is 4150mm
Beam is 915mm
Sail Area 7m^2
Slide extension 1200mm
Weight about 50kg.
Hull form in this case is a simple single chine with constant deadrise of 12 deg.
Chine is at the wl and straight from bow to stern.
I am using an old rotating mast that Erich built for kNOw Fun and Kevin has made a very cute little squate head mainsail with a foam head that should be pretty neat and still prevent the boat fom gettin its mast stuck in the soft river mud around here.
This is a variation on the Sunfish and Windmill hull form that I have always thought was pretty sweet. Easy as heck to build. I also built a flat seat because its easy and fast.
I would do a few things differently now, if given 1/2 a chance.
But the question is:
Do we think therre really has to be an international junior canooe class?
If so what should the perameters be.
Would we want to fully explore the DIY side of things or should we look at a one design model.
We could ask Bill or one of the other NAs in the class to define a boat for construction in plywood. Or if we thought it was better, we could really standardize a one design boat GRP version. With what we know now, it could be pretty cheap and pretty slick. It will never be cheaper than a Laser, but I think it should be possible to be something like 50-60% of the cost of the current IC.
Any thoughts?



Follow up from: Anders Petersson - 18.06.2003 - 1:17:23
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Beeing one of the few that actually grew up sailing the Swedish junior canoes, I find it hard to completely dismiss the value of that program. The first canoe in that program is very small (3 by 1 meters) and it fits persons between 65 - 90 lb. That little boat is actually a pretty good preparation for sailing an IC because it is very tippy and if you can stand that kind of abuse when you are that young, you might be made of the right stuff. The flip side of the tippiness (ha ha) is that the A-canoe might have scared away more youngsters than it attracted. The next step in the Swedish program is a B-canoe. That is also a nice little boat (4 by 1.2 meters), but here I tend to agree with Steve that it is pretty similar to many other cat-rigged dingies. And that might be its biggest drawback, because it doesn't really prepare you for sailing an IC. However, many of the B-canoe sailors that did move on to the IC turned out ok (Max Tollquist, Olle Bergquist, Ola Barthelson, and myself are a few examples). So if we think there is room for a junior canoe, I would suggest a smaller version of the IC, with a shorter sliding seat and a simpler rig, that can be sailed by 14-18 year olds.
Anders, SWE-105


Follow up from: Johan Baecksin - 18.06.2003 - 4:38:16


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Joint association, the focus of local clubs, or group of sailors is more important than how exactly the boat looks like. In the mid seventies, the B-Canoe and the OK dinghy were both somewhat popular 4 meter dinghies in Sweden fairly similar in design. If continuing with single handed sailing, OK sailors continued with Finns and B-Canoe with IC. Joint regattas and the Swedish Canoe association did a good job attracting B-Canoe sailors to the IC was far more important than the B-Canoe being a “Junior IC” (which it’s not).
Cheers, Johan USA-214



Follow up from: Anders Petersson - 18.06.2003 - 6:33:8


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If I were 15 years old today, I doubt that I would choose to sail a B-canoe since there are so many other cool boats out there today. I think having a junior canoe that has significantly better performance than, say, a laser, would attract young sailors to our sport. Joint regattas and class association are of course also important.
But that might not be enough, since most teenagers seem to stop sailing when they go off to college. For example, look at the Swedish junior canoe program today. It is still there as it was 20-25 years ago when Johan Baecksin, Olle Bergquist, and all the other Swedes started sailing canoes. But today it fails to produce any new IC sailors at all (correct me if I am wrong). Why doesn't it work anymore?
Cheers,

Anders, SWE-105


Follow up from: Olle Bergqvist - 18.06.2003 - 11:33:35


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The idea of real junior IC should in my mind be more appealing to youngsters than a “slightly” cheaper variant of the IC ( Superslurp). A simple, smaller and cheaper boat dedicated for youngsters, tempted to try their luck in the world of pointed sterns and sliding seats, would give more value than a new IC variant with 12 square meters of sail.
Growing up sailing the Swedish B-canoe pointed me more in the direction of Laser sailing than towards the IC. My local club had both a good IC and Laser fleet at the time and I tried to do both for a while. What triggerd me for the IC was when Johan Baecksin persuaded me to test drive his IC in a smooth summer breeze. What almost killed my IC interest was my first leaking/breaking IC. As Johan said local club support is key to junior sailing.

On the Do It Yourself question I think most youngsters today would benefit from buying a robust factory built boat of a one design nature. This does not follow the Canoe Sailing history but to get serious a manufactured boat is important and all the modification options of the IC has no real value for an entry level boat. Hopefully that goal does not have to exclude a Do It Yourself solution for those who prefer it and to be able to get a project started. … Steve you are the expert in these matters so maybe my thinking doesn’t work.

The Swedish B-canoe is closely linked to a program where teenagers learn to build their own boat. When that program changed and stopped producing B-canoes in any numbers the negative effect on the class is obvious.


Cheers Olle, SWE-93






Follow up from: Chris AUS 11 - 20.06.2003 - 14:11:12


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Steve, what do you feel are the causes of the problem in the ICs? Too expensive? Too hard to sail? Too heavy? Not enough kids coming in?
How complicated are the US boats? The British boats look vastly more complicated than the top 2 Aussie boats, which can't be too slow as they got 5th and 9th in their last worlds. The top skiffs here are normally fairly simple, as are other local boats like the 2 time world Contender champ, 3 time world FD champ and the A class cats that have won the last 3 worlds. Do the ICs need to have so much money thrown at them in deck gear?

Mind you, the Brits and Yanks are currently cleaning our clocks in ICs and skiffs - but AFAIK with the skiffs it's with fairly simple boats.

Would a Lamboley test make the boats cheaper to build, or is there little emphasis on light ends anyway?

The prospects of getting new people into the class here are really savaged when only 7 people turn up for our only class regatta for the year, only five race, and only four finish a heat. High=tech succesful sailors like multiple world Moth champ Mark Thorpe don't seem to feel my $500 '67 special is too slow or too simple, they just feel there aren't enough bums on planks. Same story you managed to turn around in the US years ago, so how do we do it here?



Follow up from: Steve Clark - 20.06.2003 - 18:46:22


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In the US there are a number of problems. In some cases, the fact that there isn't a "standard" competitive boat "for sale" may be the biggest problem. This limits us to the individuals with the saavy and courage to build their own stuff.
The fact that there are suoer exotic boats in the fleet discourages many people. They see the all carbon boats and figure it is just a matter of time before they all have to have them, and that's a pretty big pill to swallow. Nothing in the current IC makes the boat particularly easy to assemble.
Finally, the quality of the American program isn't really as good as it should be. We are one step better than Oz perhaps, but our turnouts are low and the quality of our racing doesn't inspire people to participate.
As expressed elsewhere on this board, adding kites to canoes will not positively affect any of these things. In fact it will make the situation worse. I predict a die off of at least 50% immediately and a subsequent gradual decline and death within 5-10 years.
We are in the middle of the US season, no one has converted their boats to ACs so take Rob's enthusiasm with a dose of reality.
Internationally, I don't think we have done a very effecive job of recruiting sailors and federations. My point with a Junior Canoe, or 7m^2 canoe, would be to lower the barriers to entry, get more younger people, and try to evolve/survive that way. What the boat has to look like to acheive this is debatable, but I throw out my ideas andsee who salutes.
Generally, the first thing to resolve is whether this should be a DIY project or a commercial project. If commercial, I feel we should design something that looks pretty sharp, but which can be easily produced out of "low tech", out perform a Laser (Contender like performance?) and be accessable and manageable for 15 year olds. If given an International program, it could be a potent product.
SHC


Follow up from: Chris AUS 11 - 21.06.2003 - 2:12:38


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Is there perhaps a chance for a link with the International Moth?
A skinny double-ended boat with some form of hiking device, 7m of sail and pointy ends isn't very much different in some ways to a pintail narrow Moth. The stability problem of modern Moths may rule out new sailors but one guy with a very good track rrecord is working on a boat that may be as fast or faster and may have a fair bit more stability.

I know it's not a junior canoe but maybe working together the two International development class singlehanders can do better than they would apart.

I've recently done an article on Formula 18s and it was interesting to see how enthusiastic the Hobie, Nacra, CF and Taipan guys were about the fact that they could not work together to grow cat sailing, rather than fighting each other.

The Moths here say that they are recovering due to the fact that enough modern boats are now available second-hand. They are very challenging to sail but they attract the sort of eager techo boat-handlers the IC needs. And they seem interested in the boats - Mark Thorpe has mused about building an IC for the 2008 worlds.

Maybe they could be persuaded to allow a plank option and some other compromises.

I've been sailing my D2 Lechner board against the Moths and it has the same light-air pace and more jheavy air speed. It seems to me to indicate that the flatter canoe shape of the D2 is very competitive against the ultra-skinny Moth.


Follow up from: Anders Petersson - 21.06.2003 - 21:51:25


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Steve,
Here is my 2 cents.

I think a junior canoe with a hard chine and a sliding seat that could be built both professionally in "low tech" glass and as a do it yourself project out of plywood would be a winner. Just make sure the boat is easy enough to sail for 15 year olds, but fast enough to beat all the Laser type boats. I don't think a "stabilized" Moth is the way to go. The Moth is way too extreme for most teenagers (and adults).

Anders


Follow up from: Chris AUS 11 - 22.06.2003 - 10:35:30


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Anders, I was just thinking aloud and musing about the fact that most of the IC countries have a Moth fleet and maybe synergy is better. Also, a canoe-style Moth may be surprisingly fast and much easier to sail than a narrow Moth. The old "fat skiffs" were hard to sail mainly because of nosediving and the excssively wedge-shaped hull; neither of these would apply with a fatter pintail shape.
Anyhow, I know that the Swedes have much more experience with junior canoes than I, or anyone else, has. The junior canoes look to be very sweet boats.

How quick are they? Do they have an LYS and how does it compare to the Laser, Laser Radial or Byte? How hard are they to build - are they simple ply boxes? How hard are they to sail?

Even if it was a really sweet boat, I don't know how we could get them moving in the Uk or Australia where we could, just possibly, get a Moth canoe going in conjunction with the Moth fleet. I assumed a Moth canoe would be a cheap plywood box, although hard chines in Moths do cause nasty crashes when the angle of incidence over the chines becomes excessive.



Follow up from: Steve Clark - 23.06.2003 - 13:21:32


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Chris,
Certainly there are synergies that one should encourage. Classes with similar performance and attitude can shhare regattas and committees. In UK the IC has become kind of a home for old Mothies who don't want to diet all the time. Brown, Allen, Wood, and several others all have significant Moth credits. In fact the resurgance of the Brit IC fleet started in 1980 when a bunch of high profile Mothies ( Brown, Eyre, Edwards) bought ICs.
All that being said, there is also significant benefit to starting fresh and having a new standard. For example, the current IC is pretty pricey and complex, if one were Value engineering the product, one would simplify stuff and delete some of the hard to build guucci features. One couldn't sell that product in the current environment because it wasn't trick enough. (To support that point, I have at various times tried to sell clones of the boats I have raced in the worlds. These have typically been less trick than many of the other boats there and have cost less. No takers, thanks.Z)
So the opportunity to keep it cheap and cheerful is to start over. The way to keep it that way is to have rules that limit what you can do. Laser is probably the antithisis of an IC, but we might find there is some benefit to having some aspect of canoe sailing that isn't an arms race.
To Anders point, If you let people do it themselves, then they will ALL be different and some will be better than others. ie not very one design. So I'm not sure you can have it both ways.
SHC

Follow up from: Ben Fuller - 24.06.2003 - 3:18:59


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This discussion got me thinking about how many of the people now in the class got here. When I started, I bought a used canoe that was competitive, at less than the cost of a Laser. A new commercially built boat was perhaps double the cost. Now a new commercially built boat of top quality is 3-4 times a Laser, close to 5 Laser units if it's an AC.
What happened? The boat of 20 years ago was built in conventional glass, had a wood deck, aluminum spar, no fore and aft sliding seat, no releasing shrouds. Cunningham maybe a 4:1, vang not much more. People who are now class leaders bought in at that level, then proceeded to up the ante. Perhaps it started in 84 with epoxy resin boats and carbon fiber rigs. In any case, feature creep has driven the canoe to something that I could not afford if I wanted to get into the class at age thirty - thirty five.

The 7.5 meter concept could have far greater implications than just a canoe for young people. It could be the basic boat that gets people hooked, the 20 -30 year old, the place where lots of us started. The boat we no longer have. If it could be brought in at no more than 1.5 times a Laser unit, performed significantly better, it would have appeal especially in places where the basic RS non spin performance boat ( I can't remember the designator) was not active.

In the discussions that I have had about spreading the canoe to new spots, cost and availability are the barriers. We have one real commercial builder right now and a few others that will build on a part time basis. To keep the IC / AC viable we either have to make these boats cheaper and more easily built or we have to come up with a simpler boat from which people can move.


Follow up from: Toby - 24.06.2003 - 13:56:57


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Ben's comments have got me thinking. I come from a rowing background.
In rowing (certainly in the UK) there are tiered standards that go from novice right the way through to elite. This means that there is a standard for just about everyone to have a race at, and also a series of progressions to achieve. Each level requires a step up in terms of fitness, skill and equipment. I still cherish winning my novice pot even though I have gone on to win plenty more at higher levels.

Sailing doesn't seem to offer the same facility. Most classes have a novices/first timers award at the nationals (canoe being no exception) but nothing on the weekend to weekend circuit.

How about a series award for the virgin canoe sailor? We could all start on the same line, do the same courses etc (and for that matter be included in the same overall finish order), however people who are eligible could also race for a secondary award.

This would take a lot of thinking. For a start, how to police the levels and ensure that there isn’t a drop out after the novice level. What about someone who has sailed the boat for a while but cannot afford to upgrade? Are there enough old, cheaper boats around so that we can get some publicity going saying: “Buy a canoe for £1K (here’s what’s available now) and come and join in a series designed for you?”

Most of all don’t lose sight of the objective: to get new people into the class without them having to pay large money.

Cheers
Toby

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:56 pm

Has any more thought been given to the Junior Canoe?
To be honest I don't see the need for a feeder class to get into the IC, as long as we are pro-active in fostering and mentoring new class members.
However, I've been asked by a junior what would be a good class to sail to get ready to sail an IC. Good question.
My answer, based on boats in Australia, was either just to bite the bullet and get straight into the class (a little pricey in AUS at the moment as the second hand boat market is almost non-existant) or do some skiff sailing (Cherubs etc) to get a feel for sailing fast.

But, this poses the question: "What does a feeder class need to develop a sailors skills to sail an IC?"
<ul><li>Needs to be a 2 sailed boat that rewards being sailed flat and fast </li><li>Needs to be able to lead into sliding seat sailing (hiking position...) </li><li>Needs to be friendly and not intimidating </li></ul>

For juniors, this class seems pretty interesting, and may offer the IC a chance to get into South African Sailing.
http://classes.sailing.org.za/dabchick/
Image

What do you think? Is a feeder class a worthwhile investment, or should we work out where the IC/AC/DC is going first then plan and promote class building around that?
With it being winter in majority of the IC sailing world, now is a great time to regroup and plan a promotion strategy for the class.

Phil Stevenson
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Post by Phil Stevenson » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:48 am

Steve's original ideas from 2003:

"General parameters are as follows.
LOA is 4150mm
Beam is 915mm
Sail Area 7m^2
Slide extension 1200mm
Weight about 50kg.
Hull form in this case is a simple single chine with constant deadrise of 12 deg.
Chine is at the wl and straight from bow to stern."

are very similar to the Australian VeeJay which was the dominant junior boat in eastern Aust from the 1940s -1970s. It is a 2 person boat with two sliding seats (feet on gunwales) and three sails but is now pretty out of date and only sailed in a few clubs. It did train a lot of Aust Champion sailors including John Bertrand. 11ft 6in x 3ft 6 beam. The Skate was designed 50 years ago as a big brother to the VeeJay.

A modern boat made this size for one person would be just as exciting, and just as challenging to sail. A lot more fun and a lot more rewarding than a gunwale hiked boat like Laser, Byte, Spiral, Dabchick or a million others.

Steve, did you build one for David? Does anyone want to try something like this concept now based on what we have jointly leant from the new development canoes? I think a smaller version of my DC would be simple and cheap and heaps of fun for teenagers.

But is it getting too close to a moth anyway?
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/

Steve Clark
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Post by Steve Clark » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:11 pm

Phil,
The boat is called Madeline, was built, and was sailed by Dave for two years until he decided it was time to steal Zydeco and start chasing the bigger kids in something that was just as fast.
Madeline was a pretty nice little boat, and somewhere there are pictures.
The whole thing was about as simple as I could make it at the time, and would probably be even simpler today. Martin Herbert and I built her in 6 days during one on my "On the Seventh Day He Went Yachting" splurges. 6mm ply with single taped chine, minimum framing and building jig required. I also tried to keepthe solid timper to a complete minimum so the builder wouldn't have to cut long pieces of wood or plane complex bevels.
The problem with littleboats like this is that the hull is the cheap part. Getting a mast, sails, and foils worthy of the name is usually more money than people want to spend.
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

Phil Stevenson
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Post by Phil Stevenson » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:39 am

I agree, I do not think it would be significantly cheaper to build my DC if it was 20% smaller. A slight saving in some materials but the same labour input.

Maybe beginners would be better to just start with a simple canoe with a smaller sail. I plan to have a suitable moth size sail as a storm rig for my DC, same mast just shorter on the foot.
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/

Mal Smith
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Post by Mal Smith » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:20 am

It works for the Laser to have multiple rig size divisions for lightweights and juniors. It makes more sense to use the same hull and have a junior rig than to have a completely new class. It also provides an avenue for re-using older hulls when everyone moves on up to the DC:-)

Mal.
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Oliver Moore
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Post by Oliver Moore » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:41 am

when i was little I started out with my dad's boat and just a main, tacking was next to impossible. But I was 11 and content blasting along on a reach. But we took an old main and chopped the bottom panle off of it and put a lanyard on the top. Steve has also done some stuff with adding foam into the head board, which also would have helped. Well anyways the reefed main was great. I think I even chased them around the race course a couple of times with it.

It's somewhat of a running joke here in the states that we are breeding to grow the class. Well, I'm not doing the breeding, I was breed, I guess. But anyhow it makes a big difference whether your parents are in the class or not.

Paul Scott
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Post by Paul Scott » Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:03 am

Ben's comments have got me thinking too, and, depending on my bloodwork next month, I'm going to decide what to do- DC or an idea along more along Ben's simpler less expensive lines, generally, that I'm calling a West Coast Canoe. At this point, I must admit I'm leaning more towards the alternate route, esp. since my schedule isn't going to permit me a trip to the worlds.

If I go the WCC route, I'm hoping I can post some here to get a little feedback from you guys, if there's any interest.

Let me know which forum heading would be best?

Geoff- nice hull! I'm really interested to know if the immersed bow will balance the aft max beam handling wise, assuming that your immersed area displacement curve looks as symmetrical as I think it probably does (?).

Paul
"Exuberance is better than good taste" -Flaubert

Phillip Evans
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Post by Phillip Evans » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:00 pm

Steve, there is a big hole in the single handed classes from when the juniors get out of their training boat and into a canoe,moth, contender ect.

A simple DIY plywood Junior canoe, whilst being a nice boat to sail would also provide some serious racing if fleet numbers could be grown. After recently attending the AUST Minnow Nationls this summer there was much talk of what class is next.

The next nationals are in Darwin in July this year. I would love to build a boat to make available for the Juniors to have a crack at then, and also to guage their response to the concept.

Could you supply me the information to build the boat?

Also what you would do different next time?

Phillip Evans
Phillip Evans

Steve Clark
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Post by Steve Clark » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:40 pm

Phil, I have done some work documenting what I did. I would like to do more, but have been pretty busy. Madeline was very easy to build, Martin Herbert and I knocked it out in a week. Nevertheless there were some details that were supposed to make the boat "dual purpose" that didn't work at all well. So I would revisit them and do it differently.
Give me a bit and then bug me until I get it done.
Best to your folks, hope all are well.
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

Phil Stevenson
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Post by Phil Stevenson » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:29 pm

Phil,
My sugestion is a full size DC hull with a moth rig (8m) and short (feet on gunwale) length seat. It would be a cheap conversion to a full size boat. Teenagers grow up so quickly. My son took three years to grow out of flying 11s. Changing part of the boat is cheaper than a whole boat, hence the sucess of the three rigs on lasers.

The mast in 21C is the same length as the unstayed mast in my Chainsaw Moth. I intend to try the moth sail as a storm rig on the canoe, to improve handling.
Phil S
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/

Phillip Evans
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Post by Phillip Evans » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:07 pm

Phil,

I was thinking of something a little more dosile. The width of Steves junior canoe is a little larger than the D/C and the boat is a little smaller allround and should be easier to handle for the 12 years + group. I'm thinking about 7.2 m2 (MG, NS 14 main size) with a 100mm over rotating wing mast.

Phillip Evans
Phillip Evans

Phil Stevenson
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Post by Phil Stevenson » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:01 pm

Phil,
The rotating mast has been tried on moths but is a nightmare single handed because it needs help everytime to tack the mast against the vang loads.

I have a severe hatred of anyone starting a new class. The sport has been ruined by splitting our numbers too thinnly betwen too many classes. It would be better to select an existing class and develop it into a better one, rather than start yet another one.

I have published before that anyone starting a new class should be made to purchase the entire fleet of TWO comparable classes and burn the lot. That way we end up with one less class not one more, and consequently more numbers in all remaining classes.
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/

Kris
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Post by Kris » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:35 am

Any interest still out there on this thread? Is this a topic that should be discussed at the worlds? As great as the IC is (and the DC should be better) we need more people sailing. The cost and complexity of our boats puts a competitive boat out of reach for a lot of younger sailors.

I read somewhere else lately about supplying computer cut kits for lust puppet (I think), could this be a way forward for a new junior canoe? It would have to be smaller of course, as suggested elsewhere in this thread.

If we had a controlled foils(extruded alu) and rig package (unstayed una rig, carbon or alu?) we could let people choose to build themselves in plywood, or buy them if any builder wishes to build them in GRP. At least the basic hull could be knocked up in a weekend workshop with someone experienced along to guide, and taken home for finishing up.

Kris

Russyh
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Post by Russyh » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:02 am

I dont think you will attract younger sailors by investing time and money in a junior canoe, there are allot of good looking fast cheaper boats out on the market now which has made this particular market gap jampacked full! Instead you need to look at the bigger picture and thats how to market the class as something to aspire to!!! It wont happen over night but if you can make the kids go wow when i'm older i want one of those! it will turn the class arround! i am 26 and when i was growing up you heard nothing really about the Canoe other then thinking Christ that looks scary!! People know very little about the class! Charlie and I were looking for a skiff to do some serious racing in, the 49er was the obvious choice but because we grew up in the 80's we had always aspired to sail a 14 and thats what we bought! ! All i will say is look at the Cherub class it isnt massive but it has a constant stream of youngsters joing in making and fetling boats! thats the market you should be aiming for

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