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 Post subject: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:35 pm 
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What happened?
SHC

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Below is a copy of the report that I have sent to 'Yachts and Yachting'
I hope to write a full report for the next issue of Sliding Seat........
Attachment:
Eucup_2009.JPG
Eucup_2009.JPG [ 84.94 KB | Viewed 4673 times ]

Fifteen International Canoes from Britain, Germany and Sweden were greeted by warm sunny weather for the Europa Cup at Karlstad on Lake Vänern Sweden from 7th to 9th August.

The event was hosted by the Karlstad Canoe Federation, and was shared with championships for other traditional classes of sailing canoe from Sweden and Germany.

All Nine scheduled races were sailed with excellent triangular courses and first class race management. The wind stayed light to moderate but was helped by ‘sea breezes’ at times during the days enabling sailors to make full use of sliding seats upwind.

Mark Goodchild found the conditions to his liking and dominated the event from start to finish with a fine tally of eight first places; Simon Allen showed good downwind speed and had close racing with top Swedish sailor Ola Barthelson.

Lake Vänern is a fantastic venue for any sailing championship, the local people made all visitors very welcome and the International Canoe fleet hope to return there soon.

IC Class

Sailed: 9, Discards: 2, To count: 7, Entries: 15, Scoring system: Appendix A
Rank SailNo Nat HelmName Nett
1st 265 GBR Mark Goodchild 7
2nd 278 GBR Simon Allen 13
3rd 106 SWE Ola Barthelson 18
4th 77 GER Axel Bierwagen 32
5th 67 GER Manuel Radek 38
6th 52 GER Anette Steimann 43
7th 101 SWE Johan Elfström 44
8th 111 SWE Kalle Jonasson 54
9th 58 GER Fredrik Steimann 60
10th 74 GER Eckhardt Pagel 62
11th 81 SWE Fabian Erlandsson 71
12th 76 GER Arne Stahl 76
13th 44 GER Ulrike Praetz 84
14th 78 SWE Mats Nystam 90
15th 74 SWE Peter Seybolt 95

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Congratulations to you Mark and well done Simon as the only other UK sailor to make the journey across the water to Sweden which was a big obstacle now there are no ferries going directly from the UK to Sweden. Taking a campervan was almost impossible unless you were prepared for a very long drive or a very high shipping cost.

Looking at the list of competitors and their boat numbers it appears that there were no new rules ICs attending the European Championships this year. Is this true? If it is true, it suggests that in Europe the new rules boats are not catching on as fast as in the USA and Australia. If the majority of the IC fleet are still racing in One Designs, great care is needed to handle the transition period to the new rules boats in a way that will not weaken the commitment of One Design sailors but still encourage IC sailors and new comers to the class to move into the new rules boats. Numbers are small and unless handled with great care the introduction of the new rules boats, effectively splitting the fleet, could turn out to harm the health of the class.

I am thinking of the next Europeans and the Worlds after that. The new rules boats are definitely faster than the One Designs. Based on this year's turn out, it only needs one new rules boat to turn up next year and potentially win the Europa Cup. This would be an empiric victory for the competitor concerned so what is being done both to encourage the relatively few existing new rules boats in Europe to attend but also to encourage the One Designs still to turn out? Some creative thinking is needed, for instance, in parallel with the first past the post, all ICs against each other for the Europa Cup, could finishing times for all ICs not be taken allowing a handicap event also to be run with new rules boats expected to finish in less time than the One Designs and older One Designs given a better rating than the newer, all carbon, One Designs? Something is needed to give an inclusive competition to make all possible entrants feel there is something worth coming to compete for. A full set of prizes for the best One Designs would also help retain interest as it is a bit demoralizing turning up at an event and being expected to race on level terms with a boat 33.5 Kg lighter as now happens in UK events. Here the achievements of One Design competitors get overshadowed by the inevitably better racing results of the new rules boats in race reports and lists of prize winners. One problem with sailing is that the satisfaction of achieving one's 'personal best' can only be assessed comparatively, did you beat competitors who normally beat you? Until everyone is sailing the new light weight ICs, everything needs to be done that can be done to retain everyone's interest in competing in the IC they currently own and doing their own 'personal best' in a competition with as level a plying field as possible.

The adoption of the new box rules should be helping the class grow but from my perspective, so far, the halcyon days were when we we all racing in more or less similar boats, and, drat it, I have probably just missed the last international event where that has just happened! :roll:

Colin Newman


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:57 am 
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Colin Newman wrote:
Congratulations to you Mark and well done Simon as the only other UK sailor to make the journey across the water to Sweden which was a big obstacle now there are no ferries going directly from the UK to Sweden. Taking a campervan was almost impossible unless you were prepared for a very long drive or a very high shipping cost.

Looking at the list of competitors and their boat numbers it appears that there were no new rules ICs attending the European Championships this year. Is this true? If it is true, it suggests that in Europe the new rules boats are not catching on as fast as in the USA and Australia. If the majority of the IC fleet are still racing in One Designs, great care is needed to handle the transition period to the new rules boats in a way that will not weaken the commitment of One Design sailors but still encourage IC sailors and new comers to the class to move into the new rules boats. Numbers are small and unless handled with great care the introduction of the new rules boats, effectively splitting the fleet, could turn out to harm the health of the class.

I am thinking of the next Europeans and the Worlds after that. The new rules boats are definitely faster than the One Designs. Based on this year's turn out, it only needs one new rules boat to turn up next year and potentially win the Europa Cup. This would be an empiric victory for the competitor concerned so what is being done both to encourage the relatively few existing new rules boats in Europe to attend but also to encourage the One Designs still to turn out? Some creative thinking is needed, for instance, in parallel with the first past the post, all ICs against each other for the Europa Cup, could finishing times for all ICs not be taken allowing a handicap event also to be run with new rules boats expected to finish in less time than the One Designs and older One Designs given a better rating than the newer, all carbon, One Designs? Something is needed to give an inclusive competition to make all possible entrants feel there is something worth coming to compete for. A full set of prizes for the best One Designs would also help retain interest as it is a bit demoralizing turning up at an event and being expected to race on level terms with a boat 33.5 Kg lighter as now happens in UK events. Here the achievements of One Design competitors get overshadowed by the inevitably better racing results of the new rules boats in race reports and lists of prize winners. One problem with sailing is that the satisfaction of achieving one's 'personal best' can only be assessed comparatively, did you beat competitors who normally beat you? Until everyone is sailing the new light weight ICs, everything needs to be done that can be done to retain everyone's interest in competing in the IC they currently own and doing their own 'personal best' in a competition with as level a plying field as possible.

The adoption of the new box rules should be helping the class grow but from my perspective, so far, the halcyon days were when we we all racing in more or less similar boats, and, drat it, I have probably just missed the last international event where that has just happened! :roll:

Colin Newman


Colin, did you have this many 'issues' when foilers came in and dominated the Moth class?????? IC's were development, IC's froze development, IC's split in an attempt to grow the class by going AC, IC's are now development again. Give a new rules boat a go, they are excellent fun (and allow the class to move forward without obsoleting the Nethercott hulls overnight).

Well done to all competitors in the Europa Cup, I am always one lottery win away from coming over and competing in this (and Sugar Island...) :D

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IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Hi Christian,

I guess in the UK the Moth class did have as many 'issues' as I have when foiling Moths came in. The main difference was I, personally, was the fourth person in the UK to get a foiler when I bought Rohan Veal's first foiler second hand. I was however very aware of how there were dangers in splitting what was at the time a small class and I did everything I could to keep interest alive in racing both foilers and non-foilers. I presented the UK class with two new trophies for the first Low Rider in the Nationals and a Trophy for the first Low Rider in our travellers series. That was in 2005 when a total of 24 Moths attended the UK Nationals (which I organized), only half a dozen with the 'controversial' new foils. This year, 37 Moths attended the UK Nationals, all with foils so after just four years the trophies I presented the class for 'Low Riders' have become redundant. All I can say is they did help ease the transition. The other noticeable thing in the UK Moth fleet is the change in the people actually sailing the boat. Of the 37 at the Nationals this year, only 7 (including me) were racing in the 2005 Nationals. New blood (often of a very high level, five ex-World Champions in other classes, including Robin Wood, and five ex members of the GBR Olympic team) have joined the UK Moths but more than half those sailing in the Low Rider era five years ago have left the class, some unable to cope with the expense of keeping up with developments. World wide the Moths are thriving like never before, the 2008 Worlds in the UK attracted 99 entries from 19 nations.

If only the same were happening in Canoes with the rate at which the transition to new rules boats going ahead with anything like the same speed. I wish it were but, because it is not, the period of transition to the new rules boats needs to be handled with even greater sensitivity to keep interest alive in all variants of Canoe sailing. The next year or three could be difficult for the class as it could have been for the Moths, unless handled with sensitivity to keep everyone actively involved.

One problem with Canoes is the difficulty of yet knowing what design of new rules boat is fastest. So someone thinking of making the not small financial commitment to a new boat can decide what design to buy. With Moths there were enough of each design of foiler out there racing to get the feel of should I go for a 'Prowler' or 'Bladerider' etc. In ICs it is very hard to get your hands on a successful design of new rules boat from abroad at an affordable price, and for those not into boat design and self building, it is hard to judge what would be the fastest design to go for and invest in. In Moths the rate of development was so fast that after only 18 months from the advent of foiling, second hand foilers were starting to come onto the market. As this years Europa Cup entries show, change in the Canoes is taking place much more slowly with sailors moving to the new boats less quickly, hence the need for care in handling the transition and doing all we can to keep everyone on board in the older ICs.

Purely personally, if I were not nearly 67 with worsening Osteoarthritis and a wife who is now, potentially, permanently on medication that requires her to avoid the sun and hot places and limits her strength with muscle weakness, I would be more keen to campaign in a new rules boat. Germany in 2006 was very hot by UK standards (32 C most days) so I doubt if I can be there for the next Europeans and Worlds, leaving Barbara at home for that long on her own. (She developed 'Temporal Arteritis' about three months after we got back from the Oz Worlds so now has to live on steroids and other drugs also used in cancer treatment, to prevent the alternative, death!). So I ask myself, do I really want a harder boat to sail mostly in handicap races at my home club? In the IC One-Design I finished second (out of about 35 boats ) in the early summer fast handicap series at my club, partly as a result of still being able to race the One Design IC on the windy days when, so far, at opens in the UK all the new rules boats have spent much of the race upside down. When I want a challenge and to go really fast I take out the foiling Moth. If it were less costly and easier to get hold of a boat like 'String Theory' I would probably give it a go but I am not yet convinced the new rules boats so far developed in the UK can cope in winds over 18 mph (force 5 and above) when I still race my IC One Design in club races. These days at Canoe Opens I long for big winds to have a chance of beating the new rules boats, a bit daft as I am only a light weight, but the new boats do seem harder to sail on windy days. I have not tried this experiment of getting old before but I fear going for a new rules IC will not be part of the mix!

All the best, how is the change over to the New Rules boats going in Australia?

Cheers Colin


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Colin Newman wrote:
The other noticeable thing in the UK Moth fleet is the change in the people actually sailing the boat. Of the 37 at the Nationals this year, only 7 (including me) were racing in the 2005 Nationals.

That's quite striking in the UK Cherubs too (the Cherub class in the UK had a major rule change after 2005: changing it into a boat that is basically a No3 rigged 12 foot skiff with a less extreme kite). Of 34 competitors at this year's UK Cherub Nationals only 6 did the 2005 Nationals. Mind you 1999 to 2004 in the Cherubs saw only 12 repeats in 2004, so fleets change more over the years than perhaps we think...

I didn't think the IC change was going to be that big a deal though...


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:40 pm 
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As I see it, there are two big differences between the emergence of the foiling moths and the new rules IC.
First, the speed difference between the low rider and foiling moths is so dramatic, that the low riders have been completely outclassed. By contrast, the one design can still give the new rules IC a good run for their money - as the results at our Nationals this year showed. One designs won 3 races and new rules boats won 6 races.
Second, and most critically, economic conditions are much less favourable than a few years ago. Few people are willling to invest in a new boat, in the situation where they might not have a job in 6 months time.
However, I do know that that a number of people are planning to get new rules boats in time for the 2011 Worlds in Germany, so I anticipate, in true Canoe tradition, steady, sustainable growth.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Results?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Hi Phil,

Yes, the One Design IC can sometimes beat the new rules boats, but do not forget what the RYA calls the 'crew skill factor'. It is mostly a recent World Champion (Mark Goodchild) and a multiple times Europa Cup winner (Simon Allen) who in their Nethercot hulls are still sometimes beating the new rules boats in the UK crewed by sailors of not quite the same pedigree of sailing skill, based on past achievement in the Canoe! Until such time as nearly everyone is sailing the new rules IC, all I contend is that steps need to be taken to retain the enthusiasm of the One Design sailor and for the Class both world wide and in the UK not to try and pretend that the playing field is still a level one for the One Design sailors, after crew skill factors are taken into account. The new boats are intrinsically faster, at least in conditions when they can stay upright! Those elite One Design sailors who are good enough still to beat the new rules boats probably get a special perverse satisfaction from doing so, not available to the IC sailor of more modest ability!

If all the prizes and recognition in race reports etc simply go to the first IC across the line (not just for the overall winners but also the first master, first lady etc) with nothing for the slower One Design boats, will those still sailing them retain their enthusiasm to turn out, especially at a time of financial recession when many cannot commit themselves to a new boat? I fear not. As you know, in the UK, I think the class is not doing enough to retain the interest of (still the majority) of IC sailors who are still sailing One Design boats. At the Nationals all the trophies simply went to the best placed ICs, without even a cup being reserved for the first One Design (Mark Goodchild, former World Champion) who came 4th. Not a single race report this year has even mentioned who did what in the One Design fleet, reference has all been to the top boats just as if everyone is sailing on level terms with everyone else. We are not. At opens there is no prize or even recognition of the first One Design. The class is not even committed to supporting a campaign (fruitless as it might turn out to be) to protect the PY handicap Number for the One Design IC, recognizing it as a slower boat than the New Rules IC, 33.5 Kg lighter.

With just four purpose-built new rules ICs on the water in the UK thus far, the transition to the new faster boats needs to be handled with greater sensitivity. I cannot speak for others, but I am losing my enthusiasm to turn up and race against faster ICs if everyone is pretending we are all still racing on a level playing field. Like it or not, we have created a class (one Design) within a class (IC) and unless that is recognized in the UK and internationally (as I thought was going to happen before the vote on the new rules was taken) there will not be a core of ICs (mostly still One Designs) racing with the intrinsically faster new rules boats to sustain interest in the IC. Newcomers will want to join what should become over time a more exciting class only if there is active racing in the class. During the transition period, which may be lengthy during an economic recession, the bulk of the IC fleet will still be racing One Design boats. More needs to be done not to make One-Design IC sailors feel they are just 'the past'. Until there is a bigger core of new rules boats out racing, everything needs to be done that can be done to retain enthusiasm among what is still the core of the IC fleet, the One Designs. Once the new rules boats have caught on and become the majority, the things I am bothered about ('issues' as Christian called them in this thread ) will become less important.

I am not resisting change rather trying to encourage it by pointing out that for the new rules boats to catch on there has to be active interest in the class which, for the time being, has to depend on retaining the involvement of One Design boat owners. This fact needs to be acknowledged and thought given to how it is best done for the future health of the class in which, I agree, the new light weight boats are where future growth will come. The buzz and enthusiasm by the new rules IC sailors for their boats is to be welcomed. It is infectious, but, in their own interest, they need to have more empathy for those by choice or necessity still sailing the older One-Designs, just as the new bread of foiling Moth sailor has still encouraged others to get into or keep going in the Low-rider boats as it remains one entry route into the class.

Cheers Colin


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