The International Canoe

The forum for the International Canoe
It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:00 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
Shaunanderson wrote:
What about shift workers? as too short of a notification could prevent these from attending.

As the class has split into 3 separate fleets why not use handicaps then the last race make it a pursuit using personnel handicaps. (doesnt any of the results programs work out a current handicap against the winner?)

Courses - Why are we stuck with triangles / sausages?

There needs to be ideas as to how the Classics / AC can compete against the new rules. Is this putting people off the class as they know they just cannot compete and how many non IC sailors can actually jump into a new rules anyway.

The best sailors would still rise to the top (Put Robin in an Opi and he would still beat alot of us!) but it would certainly make it more fun than just watching another new rules blast passed on the first reach.

Take the fun away and you are likely to lose the individual and not get any new blood into the class.

PS.. How do the Germans manage to attract people / youngsters into the class?


totaly agree with Shaunanderson.


I'd like to find a new race format for the europa cup in france based on handicaps where every kind of IC could win.

so every kind of IC will come.

gilles
AC FRA27


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pop-Up Events Idea
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
Speaking as someone who is supposed to know something about handicaps, there are all sorts of ways that we could produce handicaps and have handicap racing. The biggest problem, to my mind isn't the numbers - given data I could produce reasonable handicaps very easily. The problem is around the organisation.

Firstly is courses. The most fun race course for an IC isn't that much fun for an AC as they have evolved, and the courses that the ACs have evolved for aren't that much fun for an IC. So if you are going to race both on the same course then you probably have an inbetween course which isn't that great for either group, and everyone gets a slightly second rate experience.

The second thing is tactics. In true handicap racing its something of a time trial. The object is to beat the clock, not your opponent on the water. Given the three fleet situation, that means you have the choice of sailing against the clock or against your own fleet. If you sail against the clock that means no covering tacks, no taking the safe option, because consolidating your position against your fleet may be compromising your position against the other two.

A handicap prize as a bit of fun in addition to the three classes racing is no problem, and there are even ways in which one could do calculations to allow for the ACs and ICs doing different courses, but to try and produce a handicap solution for the main prizes would be extremely challenging and most likely a cure that would be worse than the disease.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pop-Up Events Idea
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
hi jimc

I didn't say that i was looking for a solution for the main price (maybe my english is not very good).

What do you think about using the same race format as the european at Travemund 2015 provided the reaches are broad enough to fly the Spinnakers with three real time prices for each sort of IC and a handicap price for the all fleet ?

I think that each sailor can choose his own objective during the race for a maximum pleasure with the boats near him.

Sorry for the pop-up events idea subject witch is a little polluted, If somebody can move it in a new subject...

cheers, gilles


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 747
Location: United Kingdom
I split this subject out as Gilles suggested.

My feeling is that reaches broad enough for AC kites would be a bit dull for ICs.

One way one could do a handicap prize for boats on different courses and classes would be to normalise each corrected time against the fleet performance.

As a first pass I'd take an average corrected time for say the top half of each fleet, and then recalculate each corrected time as a percentage of that average.
The boat with the lowest percent figure would be the one who had most exceeded his/her fleet's performance in the race and be declared the winner.
This would even avoid the need to calculate a fixed handicap.

Jim C


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:43 pm
Posts: 42
Jim,

It's probably easier just to sail us (AC/ DC) off the same handicap which is being adopted at clubs like Saundersfoot. This will reduce the complexity of running the racing generally.

As far as the reach is concerned then one broad and one tight worked well a couple of years ago at Oxford with most of both fleets happy with the course.

Gilles and the French fleet are keen for all inclusive fleet racing in their push to grow the class again in France and to be fair this approach would also support the AC fleet here too.

Keep it simple is the answer I think. :D

Martyn

AC 302

Red a Head


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
I think it could be interesting to have the brain storming of the non AC10 sailors too. (IC or DC)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:28 pm
Posts: 218
Location: United Kingdom
Hi Giles
An overall handicap prize sounds good to me, from memory we have done this at the last UK nationals. Over a good mixed course then the AC and new rules are well matched, but you do need the right amount of spinnaker legs to keep the balance. For me I am keen we all sail in the same race.
Looking forward to coming to France!

Alistair

_________________
Alistair


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
Thanks for your reply Alistair.

Do you remember what was the race format at the last UK national ? And what do you think it's the right amount of spinnaker legs compared to upwind legs?

1 more, 0,5 more ?

cheers


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:28 pm
Posts: 218
Location: United Kingdom
Hi Gilles
We had our last Nationals at Weymouth so it was triangle sausage style courses, can't remember the angles so it must have been fine for me.... but I do remember it was windy!!! The last Europa cup (and our nationals) was at Pwhelli 2016 as a practice for the worlds. There we published IC, AC and handicap results. Out of the IC results there would have also been OD (for the nethercott) results as well. This is on the international website. Generally we have one reach tight and one broad, you would have to listen to the AC sailors to know the sort of angles they prefer but form my point of view I am fine with what we have had. So that would be Beat, two sail reach, spinnaker reach, beat, spinnaker run, beat, two sail reach, spinnaker reach, beat, finish. Depending on how many races you want to sail in a day you could put the start/ finish line 1/2 way up the beat so it does not need to move or finish just off the bottom mark so you have a full first beat. Hope that helps (and hope I have it right!)

_________________
Alistair


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
yes it's really helping, thank you.

Any other IC/AC/OD sailor who has a point of view?

The job is to have the maximum advices to organize a very well done event.

cheers,gilles.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 22
Inverted P or trapezoid

_________________
If it's orange and upside down, it's probably me!
GBR 332


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 43
thanks shaunanderson.

trapezoid i see what it is.

But what's inverted P ?

gilles


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Combined/Handicap prize at Europa Cup?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 22
Hi Gilles
Inverted P or d shape is:
Beat / Run / reach / run / reach - and repeat!

_________________
If it's orange and upside down, it's probably me!
GBR 332


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group