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 Post subject: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:22 pm 
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I'm currently building a sailing canoe and, as a relative beginner, want a limited level of hiking out to increase righting moment. I like the look of the small winglets I've seen in pictures of the German Taifun canoes. Does anyone know where I might find details of these winglets, either how to make them or buy them here in the UK or in Germany? I've not found anywhere via Google except lots of nice images of them in use. I found reference to the fact that some of them are hinged but don't know exactly how this works.
All help and advice appreciated!

(I previously posted this elsewhere on the forum, but it may be better here)


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:27 am 
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Location: United Kingdom
Peter, I've moved your post here because its not really about International Canoes.

To answer your question I think we need to know more both about your boat and about the construction methods and materials you're comfortable with. The answer if you are building in carbon fibre sandwich may be different to wood.

The Taifun has side decks and construction wise is more like a conventional boat than a conventional paddling canoe. If you're starting with an open paddling canoe then you may have to consider things like the torsional strength of the craft.

I think from what I've seen of Taifun pictures the seat pivots somewhere on the inside of the side tanks and folds over the side deck, which is pretty easy to make strong enough. Maybe some photos of the inside of your canoe will help too.

I've built folding wings for a boat of mine (not a canoe) which I suspect were much bigger than anything you're considering, so hopefully I can give you some clues from that.


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:03 am 
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Many thanks for your reply Jim. The boat I'm building is a JC10, designed in the late 1990s as a 'trainer' for the IC10. It has substantial side decks (about 9" wide) over air tanks, so should be able to support a winglet on each side. The Selway Fisher design was intended to be 'stitch and glue' ply, and had a small sliding seat. Mine is a bit different as it is 'strip-built' (cedar covered with epoxy/glass) reinforced in various areas with carbon fibre, including under the winglet zone. It is still under construction but I am thinking ahead! As a relative beginner I didn't want the complication of a sliding seat and thought that the fixed winglets would be an adequate start, perhaps just adding about 30-50cm width for hiking. Having only seen the pictures of the Taifun winglets with little detail, I was hoping to find a supplier of the boats in the UK where I could go and have a look, or perhaps if someone owns one they could send some more detailed pictures. Alternatively, perhaps some plans might be available from Germany if I knew the supplier and website? I am happy to make them myself using a range of construction methods and wood/epoxy/carbon fibre but would benefit from better design ideas and information first. For example, are they supposed to be folded as you change tack or just for storage and transport - it looks on the pictures as though they are just left 'out' on both sides when tacking and just touch the water when keeled over excessively.
I'm not familiar with this forum so posting a picture may not work, but this is what I had in mind: [img][IMG]http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag366/Peterphiliprobinson/JC10/Taifun_GER401_0001%20Claudius%20Junge_zpsf4uxanlh.jpg[/img][/img]
My boat so far is here: [img][IMG]http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag366/Peterphiliprobinson/JC10/DSC03996_zps1eppno8i.jpg[/img][/img]
Thanks again for your help.
Peter

By the way, I think this is more about 'International type' canoes than open canoes, so I hope folks will still see this after you moved it!


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:19 am 
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Location: United Kingdom
Gosh that's a pretty thing and looks very nicely done. Very different from my own rather utilitarian approach.

Peter R wrote:
Having only seen the pictures of the Taifun winglets with little detail, I was hoping to find a supplier of the boats in the UK where I could go and have a look,


I don't know of a Taifun, or even one of the equivalent Swedish classes in the UK. There's probably one somewhere just to prove me wrong, but hard to find. You could try hunting from the Swedish and German pages on the front of the main site for their builders: hope your languages are better than mine.

This page http://www.devboats.co.uk/sailing/plusplus/hullprog.htm includes the details of the much bigger folding wings on my boat: I'm not sure that style would fit your boat at all though. Find the entry for 18-1-98. The way I hinged mine was to fabricate L shaped bits of carbon and poke them up through the decks from underneath, but am not at all sure I'd want to do that to your decks. Some of the german boats seem to have a vertical pivot in the side deck so they just rotate round, but I don't think I like that idea for yours.

For that boat I want to suggest a hinge point just under that coaming, and a really complex curved seat - sort of hockey stick in end view only more so, that will fold back into the cockpit, but it feels like a complete and utter [redacted] to construct. If you want to get something of a new design fabricated then I'd trust both Razorback (Rob) and Bloodaxe (Andy P) to do you a good job and provide reliable guidance as to what won't break. Provided the seat extends no further than the width of the deck beyond the gunwhale the loads ought to be within reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:50 am 
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Many thanks Jim - the wings on your boat look very nicely done but much larger than I had in mind. I'll try again to find a German or Swedish manufacturer website, or their association websites. On reflection, I think I might be best to make the winglets removable and just clamp them on when rigging up. I should be able to mould something with foam and carbon - the number of layers you have used is useful information.
Thanks again.
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:43 am 
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Location: United Kingdom
Peter R wrote:
...make the winglets removable and just clamp them on when rigging up. I should be able to mould something with foam and carbon - the number of layers you have used is useful information.

Yep, I assumed you wanted something far smaller, but I figured at least it was *some* info. FWIW my beam layup turned out to be a bit marginal and had to be repaired after a few seasons use. Of course your winglets will be a fraction of the length so the loads will be equally fractional. As I'm sure you realise, when the boat heels and the winglets hit the water there will be extra loads. If they are held down as mine were there will be a small amount of extra heel resistance at the cost of lots of drag. On the other hand if they are hinged and can flip up they'll probably just bounce along the water surface. My wings were held down by a rope running over each beam, under the wing and then back to a cleat. The rope was 3 strand terylene rather than anything more exotic to enable the stretch to preload.


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 Post subject: Re: Hiking Winglets
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 21
Location: Gosport
Couldn't get Photobucket to show your boar, and I have found that once they know you've posted on another site they try to charge a small fortune for the privilege.

I found this image though of the JC10

There has been some discussion lately about a junior trainer, (particularly about the Taifun) and this looks like a pretty, if less robust alternative.

Image

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K102 "Torment." Cold moulded Nethercott
Finished restoration project.2016


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