Adopting DC Rules - Aussie input

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IC - DC restrictions

Poll ended at Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:10 pm

I like the idea of adopting the DC restrictions
6
86%
I think the IC rules should stay with the one design hull.
1
14%
 
Total votes: 7

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Christian AUS
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Adopting DC Rules - Aussie input

Post by Christian AUS » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:10 pm

Well the UK doing an informal poll seems like a great idea, so let's see what the Aussies think?

I've left AC out completely as it's really not an issue Down Under (I think only 2 were ever properly set up for kites, and 1 of those is US bound).

(Oh and this poll will run for 30 days)

Happy Australia Day

Dunno
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Post by Dunno » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:32 am

Ammm, am I missing something, what is the point in this pole, the DC rules were accepted, so most people liked it, there arnt many people in Aus....

Barry Watkin
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Post by Barry Watkin » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:10 am

Christian, Iam slightly bemused, you say the AC is not an issue in Aus but I see that many of your older(ok & newer) IC's are or were being converted AC, surely there owners thought it worthwhile to give it a go. Is that in recognition that as IC'c there days were numbered? :?: But I'm guessing due to the few AC's that travelled from elsewhere went back to IC mode just for the worlds? :wink: To race in the 'big' event, I can understand that. Maybe even pressure to go the DC route. It would be a shame if these boats wern't finished off as there owners intended and raced together as AC's rather then ignored as not an 'issue'
To those of you with nearly converted IC/AC's finish them off and make up your own minds, if you want motorvation take a look at the UK site. Seeing 20+ AC's on a race course is in modern terms pretty 'awsome'
Theres nothing to stop you building a DC as well.
regards Barry :lol: .

Ps, Yes cards on the table I have fully converted(carbon everywhere) my mature IC to AC and have bined my first attempt at a DC hull(to heavy) so little point. :wink:
BMW

Phil Stevenson
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Post by Phil Stevenson » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:55 am

Guys, the point is this.
The DCs were impressive enough for most of the people sailing canoes at McCrae to vote to change the World Campionship International Canoe rule to the rule as written for what we have come to know as DCs.

Because the AC fleet in the UK is mostly modified OD nethrcotts, the old IC (nethercott) rule would be retained and used by the AC sailors.

So thie idea is to have one development rule for the IC and a separate OD plus spinnacker rule for the ACs.

It is anticipated that anyone with a Nethercot would be able to sell it into the AC fleet for conversion.

WRT Australia, there are only 26 canoes, and as Christian said only two or three were ever converted to ACs and all were converted back again.

So far there are only three development canoes, but they are all new in the last 18months all sailed at McCrae and not much else was built for a while longer than that.

And apart form an occasional local goup of three or four boats the only time there are decent fleets are at the nationals, so it is pretty importatnt that the whole canoe fleet sail under one rule.

The feeling at McCrae was that the new rule boats hold the future for canoe sailing, in attracting new people with exciting boats and hopefully building some local fleets.

FWIW when the three fleets were combined for the preliminary series, the development boats always came out faster. The ACs were not impressive. In fact Hayden was very competitive in the light stuff with his Nethercott and there is some feeling that a Nethercott with some weight reduction may be a viable option.

With so many existing IC sailors choosing not to even sail at McCrae at all, the class future is probably more wisely directed at new people than in preserving the wrongly perceived value in old obsolete boats.
Design perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing else to add but when there is nothing else which can be taken away.
http://philscanoes.blogspot.com/

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:11 pm

Pretty much what Phil said, plus an informal poll is a way of seeing what the AUS members feelings are on the IC/DC to keep a track of how we best manage a change (if a change is voted in during the ballot for all IC members - and another chance to harp on that if you want to have your say then join up http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au).

Barry, not sure where you see the conversions as it isn't the case in AUS. I was someone who had an IC/AC built in 2006 for the worlds - tried it and didn't like it. Tim has an AC convertable boat, and that's it for the boas which have raced with kites. HOWEVER, if any Aussie IC want's to go down this path I will make sure the ICAA supports you and your National/International racing endeavours. But with regards to our mainsay fleet, and the Aussie future direction I can only seriously look at what is here and now on the water - and it isn't AC's.
This will sound a little bitchy, but it's just my take on sailing: I saw 20 plus AC's on the water in 2005 and was interested - though a little put out by the short courses and with them being windward/return (even had an AC made because of it). But, was completely put off by the lack of motivation of AC sailors to promote their class internationally! By the way my hat goes off to Tobias, John, Peter (and Colin) for flying the AC flag at a worlds outside of the UK!

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Post by H Virtue » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:51 pm

The poll is basically another way to get people to think about canoes and the more often we can have people think about canoes the better. In some cases it might get people even think futher and blow the dust off their boats and go sail them. It also helps get some feed back from hopefully those who weren't at the Worlds so they also get a chance to have thier say.

The AC is not really an issue in OZ becasue we as a class decided some time ago we didn't want to split our small fleet at our major events (nationals mostly) and so decided that we would race as IC's in these events to be eligable for the prize. We and Christian in particular has always welcomed all Canoes to our events to sail with us so they can show off their boats and also so they can see how their boats stack up against the IC. Also the few that have tried the AC didn't really feel the extra gear that had to be carried and effort needed to sail them wasnt worth it and converted back to IC.

For me the AC concept was lost in 2005 when they sailed only W-L courses at the Worlds that ended then and their my interest in AC's. I bought a conversion kit from Robbo I sailed as a IC at 2005 Worlds with a view of seeing what the AC's where upto so I could put what I learnt into a new boat I intended to build after 2005. I built a new boat and decided from what I saw in 2005 I would stay as IC. I have recenlt sold my conversion kit back to the UK (last bits going back in the UK box) that ends my envolvement in AC's, they look spectacular sure. I highly recommend you all have a go at a DC at some stage, I've sailed alot of assymetric boats over the years, including 18' skiffs. The ride I had on Josie was breath taking the speed and feeling at the end of the seat in a good stiff gust out did any ride I had on the 18's ( I've sailed an 18 with the big rig in downhill over 20 knots of wind which mean Ive extremely dam fast on one) .

I vote, we vote asap and return the IC back to its origins and start to innovate again.

H.

dave.timson
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Post by dave.timson » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:53 pm

Christian AUS wrote:completely put off by the lack of motivation of AC sailors to promote their class
I don't think you can take 1 'Worlds' on the other side of the 'Globe' as an example here!
I think its a numbers game in Oz, and as you have such a limited IC fleet in total then it makes sense to keep yourselves all in the same bag.
As far as motivation and promotion of the AC fleet then you only have to look at the numbers racing in the UK every week and new boats built. We have recently attracted a number of sailors from other single handed asymmetric fleets and have had further interest from others.
In the UK the quality, competetive racing is alive and kicking in the AC fleet whether on a windward/leeward or trapezoidal track!
Negative comments directed at a very bouyant UK AC fleet, does nothing but lose the interest of a large part of our class.
I promote the IC/DC fleet at my Club as I see every IC sailor another potential AC competitor. :lol:
Juiced-up GBR303

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:08 pm

dave.timson wrote: I don't think you can take 1 'Worlds' on the other side of the 'Globe' as an example here!
quote]

Wih Worlds every three years, 6 years between fleet attendances is pretty big
dave.timson wrote:I promote the IC/DC fleet at my Club as I see every IC sailor another potential AC competitor. :lol:
Think bigger than national racing, think Internationally and get everyone one into sailing IC's.

In all seriousness and as stated above, the AUS fleet will support all comers - I do have concerns about the AC fleet and it's support of International racing and I would love to have these proved wrong by seeing them achieve 6 Nations in Germany. This is good banter for anyone interesed in the facets of IC's but isn't addressing the hopeful world embrace of the DC rules for IC's and Australian sailors feelings on this (though we've been discussing this, and a majority have been in support of this move, for a couple of years now - see previous polls).

Barry Watkin
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Post by Barry Watkin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:11 pm

Christian, Hi my assumtions over AUS AC numbers was gained via the Aussie class site which note numbers 1,2,6,16,18 & 24 were in the process or had been converted. As I previously stated I can totally understand you guys came to the decision to all stay IC to build a fleet, especially with the Worlds in the offing. Its now that you have an impetous towards the rule change (DC to IC) that I believe we have the chance to encourage the convertion of exsiting Nethercott's to AC's saving the negative banter for the bar. Interestingly from the reports from the pre-worlds and the thread on PY's it would appear that both the AC & DC (& Hayden!) were pretty similar indeed the reports were suggesting DC's were quicker so why not let them race off the same number together? That would help keep your or any fleet numbers higher, keep older boats racing & hopefully stimulate interest & growth
in the class Which is basically whats it's all about.
Anyway must dash my Rugby boots need cleaning, now thats a game you guys shoud try. :twisted: regards Barry.
BMW

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:45 pm

My goal as ICAA president is to get as many IC's on the water as possible, support current members and ensure that Australians travel to World Championships with ICAA support. The activity that affects ICAA members directly is the upcoming IC/DC Ballot.

(I know those AC numbers are on the very generous side, and relate to people who have inquired about AC's more than conversions being made. However if it keeps Aussie numbers on water - and i get enough requests - I will shop around and bulk buy AC conversion kits to help retrofit IC's).

I'd be quite happy to discuss AC's in another thread, feel free to start one and promote AC's positively! As this thread has really gone away from Aussies and IC class directions with regards to the DC.

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Post by frank! » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:04 pm

H Virtue wrote: The ride I had on Josie was breath taking the speed and feeling at the end of the seat in a good stiff gust out did any ride I had on the 18's ( I've sailed an 18 with the big rig in downhill over 20 knots of wind which mean Ive extremely dam fast on one) .


H.
brave words, hayden,
but i reckon that, in anyone's life, three interlocked blokes a long way out from a carbon leaf skipping under a big kite in a big wind is a peak experience! - and how about windsurfing in the Molokai channel? I cant see that the DC outdoes anything other than an IC - if you know what i mean.
I do think DC is the way it should always have been - but now i would like to play the skeptic. the canoe is iconic. it led the racing classes with innovations - but now seems hedged around by moths, mustos and A Cats. perhaps that is what they saw in '71 and attempted to consolidate the class into an accessible package. the canoe is distinctive and special - but not vastly ahead of the pack as it once was. the DC will maintain its position, but it won't restore the glory days - hopefully there will be enough ongoing enthusiasm to offset the reduced accessability.

just trying to throw some other discussion points into the mix.

frank

(newbie old bloke @ back of fleet)

H Virtue
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Post by H Virtue » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:59 pm

Hey Frank

Did Josie out do the speed of the ride on the 18 probarly not, out do the enjoyment wow factor definitely did for me, to have a one man boat go that hard without a kite to keep the bow out of the water and not even feel like going down the mine and excellerate after the boat was already going bloody fast was brilliant.

The Moth (or any foiling boat) for mine are the third dimension of sailing i.e. Monohull, Catamaran and Foiler. Once a Moth is on it foils good-bye no one can argue against their performance on the foil, below foiling conditions they suck big time.

Ive never raced against a Musto so I wont comment to far on them v's IC.

The IC glory days are gone being the standout fastest single handed monohull in the World was eventually going to get stripped from us. Im not personally to worried about it any more its just a fact of life. The same as its a fact that sailing an IC at end of the plank is one of the best rides around. Making that ride even better aka the DC box rule is the way forward for a few reasons IMHO.

1. The cost of a DC is less than a Nethercott (less material).
2. A DC can be easily home built.
3. They are lighter and more easily handled ashore.
4. Could returns the class back to its glory das of being one of the greatest innovating classes.
5. The DC kicks the arse of a Nethercott i.e. a another monohull (not foiler) without a huge kite kicks the arse of a boat that has been for a long time the fastest single handed monhull
6. Watching Chris and Steve go past me like I was standing still at the Worlds was hugely impressive.

The consolidation in 71 was more to do with attacting professional builders
at the time by having a fixed shape so professional builder(s) could justify the cost of tooling. (others feel free to correct me here if Im wrong)

The DC has kept me sailing and has got others back on at end of planks, also we are seeing some new faces at the end of planks.

H.

Kris
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Post by Kris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:59 pm

I take a simple view on this. DC will become IC, I think most of the active sailors are really for that. As for AC, we will welcome any prospective AC sailors with open arms. It certainly is an exciting package. But it will only catch on if there is interest. At the moment it seems there is close to none here in Aus. I've got a kite and bowsprit for my old boat. But the DC is what excites me personally and I'm putting all my energy into that.

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Christian AUS
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Post by Christian AUS » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:44 pm

We did a poll on this a couple of years ago when the Box rules were first put in writing. The responses can be found here:
http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting. ... ID=Website

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